New Panasonic 4K 60P Camcorder HC-X1000

tflak said:
My apologies. I stand corrected. They must have just reinstated that deal because when I ordered mine it was no longer a part of their package and I had to call and request the price match to get it. I even rechecked the site early this morning prior to telling you were "wrong" -- either it wasn't there then or I simply missed it sitting so damn boldly right up there in the header. (smile)

So your flawless record remains intact and I'll definitely know better next time before accusing you of being in error. :)
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LOL!
No worries, my friend! I've been wrong on here before. Believe me, I've been pointed out as being wrong on this site several times. With great enthusiasm, I might add.

I checked the usual sources for this camera, and so far only B&H and Adorama have the free card. I think B&H had to add it back in because of Adorama's offer. Competition is good for the customer.
Amazon has the camera for a cheaper price, but it doesn't include the card, so you actually end up paying more if you have to buy your own 64GB SD card.
 
vanvideo said:



I know it also states no recording media, but the ad clearly says it does, so they have to honor it. If there's a discrepancy, I'm sure they'll include a card.
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The "no recording media" is a standard inclusion shown for all cameras that do not include media when shipped from the manufacturer (which is almost all). The "Includes" bit supersedes that note.
 
If you are in LA, this Friday (Nov. 7th), Barry Green will be here at EVS giving a free seminar on the HCX-1000 from 12-4pm....info is on our Facebook page for sign ups.

Jim Martin
 
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Jim Martin said:
If you are in LA, this Friday (Nov. 7th), Barry Green will here at EVS giving a free seminar on the HCX-1000 from 12-4pm....info is on our Facebook page for sign ups.

Jim Martin
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I'd better give Virgin Atlantic a call then! ;)

I've ordered mine now from CVP. It won't be in stock until the 21st November. Annoyingly I start chemotherapy treatment on the 20th... Doh!
 
I'm blushing...No, I didn't own Filmtools..... . In moving forward, EVS was the most exciting for me so I'm here (3 months now)....and yes, EVS has always been strong with Panasonic so that is one of the reasons we/EVS got named one of the two Varicam dealers here in town.

Jim Martin
 
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Jim Martin said:
NEVS has always been strong with Panasonic so that is one of the reasons we/EVS got named one of the two Varicam dealers here in town.

Jim Martin
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That's great news, Jim - congrats! Wish I could make Barry's seminar on Friday, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you'll have something like that with the Varicam when it's available
 
A little surprised at the lack of activity here for a new camera.

Should preface the following by saying I deliver everything in 1080. So all 4K is inserted into a 1080 timeline. And am seeing little difference between something shot in 4K versus 1080. In fact, maybe the 1080 footage is just a hair sharper. Although I need to do more precise shooting and comparing to really say. Could just be a matter of focus. Or maybe something Panasonic is doing in-camera when scaling the 4K to 1080.

And should probably also add that I haven't used iA since my initial shoot. Nothing wrong with it - worked surprisingly well under the conditions. And I wouldn't hesitate to use it again, if circumstances dictated. Just prefer more control.

But I do have some fairly definite observations about iZoom and the X1000's 1080p compared to 4K. This is based on admittedly limited experience to date, but one thing I can report is iZoom at full zoom has resulted in comparatively noisy footage for me. It's noticeably noisier than the same scene with the same settings shot at 4K. To test this, I put 4K footage in a 1080 timeline (FCPX) and scaled it to 200%. Then compared it to the 1080 footage. In every case, the 1080 using iZoom is noticeably noisier than the 4K - which kind of surprised me. Having done that, must say it's something I wouldn't normally do with 4K footage in a 1080 timeline. Usually limit scaling 4K to about 150% with 175% as a max. These results are repeatable when shooting various different scenes and settings. The comparative increased noise is obviously a result of using iZoom. I wouldn't say it makes the footage unusable. It's just a matter of why would you want to use it unless you couldn't shoot 4K for some reason.

I bought this camera primarily for shooting wildlife. And so the prospect of a 40x zoom using iZoom was intriguing. But think I'll stick with shooting 4K. Not only due to the noise at full iZoom, but because 4K gives more flexibility in post in terms of stabilizing, reframing, and even (rarely) adding some pseudo camera moves.

There's certainly nothing shabby about the zoom on this camera without using iZoom. I had an AC-160A but never took it on hikes due to size and weight. And so before getting the X1000 was using my GH4 with a 100-300mm on it. Shooting wildlife, most of my footage was at the long end of that lens (actually about 250mm since that seemed to be the sweet spot). But it really limited what I could shoot otherwise - without changing lenses. And you never know what's going to suddenly show up so changing lenses was something I actually rarely ever did. Thereby passing up some good shooting opportunities. Not to mention needing to slap an ND filter on it when conditions were bright.

The X1000 has changed everything for me. Macro? No problem - as close as 1" and then 626mm (equiv.) on the long end - all with one lens. And scaling 4K up in a 1080 timeline gives you even more effective reach. Small form factor, light weight and most of what I appreciated on the AC-160A. Except that the autofocus on this cam puts the AC-160A to shame. Spanks it! And far better than the GH4. Can't really say enough good things about it. I even sometimes forget I can focus manually. :)

I could say a lot about the ergonomics. In short, Panasonic did a wonderful job here. Really liking the size, feel and layout of everything. Thought maybe I'd miss having the larger buttons, etc. of the AC-160A, but no.

There are a few things that bug me. No 180º shutter setting for one. But I'm getting used to that. However, the biggest annoyance I've run across so far is there's NO MENU MEMORY!! (at least I haven't found any way to enable it). What a HUGE time waster! How could they not include something so basic?!
 
tflak said:
A little surprised at the lack of activity here for a new camera.
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After briefly trying out the camera at a Panasonic demo and looking at the footage, I've decided I'm going to go for the Sony X70 instead. The lower price and larger sensor of the Sony are my main reasons for this. ( I don't mind waiting for the 4K upgrade option )
 
TheDingo said:
After briefly trying out the camera at a Panasonic demo and looking at the footage, I've decided I'm going to go for the Sony X70 instead. The lower price and larger sensor of the Sony are my main reasons for this. ( I don't mind waiting for the 4K upgrade option )
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So you prefer the X70's 4K footage to the X1000's? :) My ex promised me she could easily lose 250 lbs. before we were married. No, seriously, a larger sensor is attractive. And so is a lower price.

Have found I can go with around 6-8dB gain when shooting 4K and then putting it in a 1080 timeline without noticeable noise. And even push it to 15dB and still have it be usable. Depends on subject matter, of course.
 
tflak said:
So you prefer the X70's 4K footage to the X1000's? :)
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Ha! ...X70 4K doesn't exist at this point in time, but I'm willing to take it on faith that Sony won't ef-it-up next Spring.

Actually what convinced me about the X70 was shooting the same scene with the FZ1000 and the X1000, and the FZ1000's larger sensor appeared to produce a cleaner image to my eye. ( I wish Panasonic had gone with the sensor from the FZ1000 for the X1000 )

I've seen a bunch of 1080 HD test footage from the X70, and when the camera is properly focused the footage looks great. ( AF might be a weak point with the X70, but I always prefer to manually focus when I can )
 
tflak said:
So all 4K is inserted into a 1080 timeline. And am seeing little difference between something shot in 4K versus 1080. In fact, maybe the 1080 footage is just a hair sharper.
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That would likely be down to however your editing program is doing the downscaling. In the HC-X1000, they use the entire 4K scan and properly downscale, so your results are not surprising. The 1080p looks really sharp from the X1000. It's not like on the GH4 where they pixel-skip to get 60fps out of it, in this camera it does it the ideal way, processing the entire 4K scan and then downconverting it.

However, the recorded 1080 is saved as 4:2:0, whereas the downconverted 4K should be being processed internally by your editor as 4:4:4, up until it gets rendered out. So, yes, I would shoot 4K in the first place whenever possible, as it preserves more options.

And should probably also add that I haven't used iA since my initial shoot. Nothing wrong with it - worked surprisingly well under the conditions. And I wouldn't hesitate to use it again, if circumstances dictated. Just prefer more control.
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Totally understandable, pros have always preferred more control. But yeah, the iA is really surprisingly good. Back in the old days we used to proclaim a pox upon anyone who dared to use auto-anything, but ... starting with the AC90 and now with the X1000, I gotta say... auto ain't bad, it really does a surprisingly good job.

but one thing I can report is iZoom at full zoom has resulted in comparatively noisy footage for me. It's noticeably noisier than the same scene with the same settings shot at 4K. To test this, I put 4K footage in a 1080 timeline (FCPX) and scaled it to 200%. Then compared it to the 1080 footage. In every case, the 1080 using iZoom is noticeably noisier than the 4K - which kind of surprised me.
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It shouldn't be surprising, that's about what one should expect. When using 4K and downconverting to 1080, the noise gets averaged together. When viewed at a 1:1 ratio, the in-camera downconverted 1080p is less noisy than the 4K source is. It's common sense, really -- just like how 4K->1080p yields 10 bit from 8-bit, and 4:4:4 from 4:2:0, it also delivers a lower noise signature because the noise is averaged among four pixels.

However, when going to i.Zoom, you're not getting the full effect of the averaging. i.Zoom uses less scaling, and therefore leaves the image more like in its natural 4K state. So there's a little more noise, yes, that's the tradeoff for getting a basically resolution-lossless doubling of the range of the zoom.

I wouldn't say it makes the footage unusable. It's just a matter of why would you want to use it unless you couldn't shoot 4K for some reason.
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I agree that in general, shooting 4K in the first place just makes more sense. If you for some reason cannot shoot 4K, or if you're not going to be doing the post work and your client can't handle 4K, then I would have no qualms with using i.Zoom. Just understand that if you stretch past the limits of the optical zoom, then yes, the price you pay is a bit more noise in the image. But whenever you have full control over the post path, and the budget and time permits a 4K edit (even if a 1080p or DVD finish), then yes, I say shoot 4K in the first place. It just preserves options, and it allows for a potentially better-looking final product.

I bought this camera primarily for shooting wildlife. And so the prospect of a 40x zoom using iZoom was intriguing. But think I'll stick with shooting 4K. Not only due to the noise at full iZoom, but because 4K gives more flexibility in post in terms of stabilizing, reframing, and even (rarely) adding some pseudo camera moves.
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I agree entirely.

There's certainly nothing shabby about the zoom on this camera without using iZoom. I had an AC-160A but never took it on hikes due to size and weight. And so before getting the X1000 was using my GH4 with a 100-300mm on it. Shooting wildlife, most of my footage was at the long end of that lens (actually about 250mm since that seemed to be the sweet spot). But it really limited what I could shoot otherwise - without changing lenses. And you never know what's going to suddenly show up so changing lenses was something I actually rarely ever did. Thereby passing up some good shooting opportunities. Not to mention needing to slap an ND filter on it when conditions were bright.
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Absolutely! I've got a GH2 with the 100-300, and ... while it does give some good reach (especially if you go for ETC) the lens isn't that sharp, especially magnified, and the 3x zoom range is really limited as compared to the 20x zoom of the X1000. Plus the cost of buying lenses and carrying lenses and changing lenses... those are all reasons why I like the idea of an X1000 type camera. It's just soooo much easier to work with and fewer things to hassle with. The downside is the loss of the lovely shallow DOF that a large-sensor camera brings, of course.

The X1000 has changed everything for me. Macro? No problem - as close as 1" and then 626mm (equiv.) on the long end - all with one lens. And scaling 4K up in a 1080 timeline gives you even more effective reach. Small form factor, light weight and most of what I appreciated on the AC-160A. Except that the autofocus on this cam puts the AC-160A to shame. Spanks it! And far better than the GH4. Can't really say enough good things about it. I even sometimes forget I can focus manually. :)
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See, I totally agree with all of this. This is exactly what I was finding with it. I know the X1000 isn't for everyone, and it wouldn't be my first choice for a narrative filmmaking camera where the shallow DOF is so important, but ... there are uses where this type of camera is just such a better design and so much more suitable. And the relatively small size and light weight makes it so much more luggable and handle-able than the AC160-sized cameras.

I could say a lot about the ergonomics. In short, Panasonic did a wonderful job here. Really liking the size, feel and layout of everything. Thought maybe I'd miss having the larger buttons, etc. of the AC-160A, but no.
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Agreed again. It really reminds me of the size & feel of the original DVX100.

There are a few things that bug me. No 180º shutter setting for one. But I'm getting used to that. However, the biggest annoyance I've run across so far is there's NO MENU MEMORY!! (at least I haven't found any way to enable it). What a HUGE time waster! How could they not include something so basic?!
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You mean how every time you go into the menus it always starts at "camera setup"? Or are you talking about something else?

Thanks for taking the time to share your observations with us!
 
Barry- is this effectively a single chip 1/3" camcorder? And is the gain comparable to the ac90 in terms of noise?
 
Thought about this some more, maybe this will help explain it -- the i.Zoom is basically the same thing as ETC mode on a GH2 (or later). On the GH2, ETC was a 1:1 pixel scan from the center of the chip. That's what i.Zoom does (when fully i.Zoomed in to the max). And on ETC, people noticed an increase in noise. Accordingly, yes, you'll see an increase in noise on the HC-X1000, as it's doing basically the same type of thing.

With the X1000, it's not a low-light camera. The base ISO isn't very high, I haven't directly measured but I'll guess it's in the neighborhood of 64 ISO. The lens is decently fast, but the gain can be noisy. In 4K I'd say 6dB of gain is a reasonable limit, but I wouldn't want to push it past that (unless I knew for sure I was going to be going for a 1080p finish, in which case the downconversion will clean up the noise nicely). In 1080p, I think it's acceptable at 12dB, but past that it starts to get noisy and, depending on how high you've cranked up your "chroma level" menu item, there can be noticeable chroma noise in there too. I wouldn't want to go running 30dB of gain on this camera (even though it can do it), because it gets very noisy at that level.

There are steps you can take to control the noise, just like always -- lower the chroma level, and lower the detail level controls, and use a cine-like gamma, and all three of those steps will minimize the appearance of and effect of the noise. I ran a test where the gamma was black-press and the detail levels were cranked up and the chroma was at +7 and, yeah, you can make it look really noisy. Or, you can drop the detail and chroma levels down, and use the cine gammas, and the noise is a lot milder and less noticeable.

One sure way to minimize the noise is to shoot in 1080; the downconversion to 1080 really vacuums up the appearance of noise.

I think it does fine at 0dB, and it always looks cleaner if shooting 1080p than 4K (for the aforementioned downconverting/averaging noise reasons). If you gain it up, you run the risk of seeing a little or a lot more noise, depending on how much gain you use and what your detail and chroma level settings are. It can range from very little, to blizzard level (at 30dB). If you downconvert to 1080, it makes much of that noise go away. In the end, there's only so much that can be reasonably expected from a 1/3"-sized sensor patch delivering 4K resolution. The camera can deliver really excellent images, but if what you really want is a low-light superstar then this isn't the right camera for that job. My advice would be to limit your use of gain to no more than 6dB in 4K, or 12dB in 1080p, and if you can use less, use less. If you need more brightness than 6dB of gain will give you, it may be time to look at lowering the shutter speed as a preferable choice over pouring more gain into the image, or consider using a lower detail level. That's always been my stock advice for all Panasonics; using more detail means enhancing the edges of the noise, thus drawing attention to the noise. A liberal application of detail coring can overcome that, at the potential of smoothing out some of the fine detail (which, obviously, you'd prefer not to do; buying a 4K camera is about capturing the fine details, after all.)

All in all, I think it's a nice camera capable of some surprisingly good results, but you really do have to know how to wrangle it to get the best results from it.
 
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Ed Kishel said:
Barry- is this effectively a single chip 1/3" camcorder? And is the gain comparable to the ac90 in terms of noise?
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As near as I can tell, the effective patch of the sensor that is used is about 1/3", yes. But no, the gain isn't comparable to the AC90, it's more like the HMC40. On the AC90, they used strong noise reduction to make the use of gain nigh unto indiscernible... it was really effective, and gaining up the AC90 didn't really result in any additional grain per se, it seemed more like it just made the image flatter and softer the higher you went. With this HC-X1000, it depends on your settings; gaining it up can result in a mild but reasonable increase in noise, or, if your settings accentuate the noise and you use a lot of gain, you can get a nasty blizzard of blotchy chroma noise, so you have to know how to wrangle the camera. If you avoid the liberal use of gain, you'll be fine, but if you need a lot of gain, you have to be careful. It's not as invisible and effortless as the gain on the AC90 was.
 
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Having a HMC150 and loving it, would you recommend the HCx1000 or the ac160 for my next camera. I use manual modes for interviews, but with run and gun type of shots, I use auto mode. I am reading the HCX1000 is doing a great job at outo-focus, then the ac160.
My biggest thought is if they release next year or so an ac170, or is the HCX1000 a good runner up for this slot?

Also, I am looking forward to working with 4k.

I am curious to see how the low light of the HCX1000 is compared to the HMC150 or ac160.

thanks for any insight or advise?
 
The X1000 represents some steps forward from the AC160, and also some steps back (because it's a smaller, less-expensive camera). Sensitivity is the AC160's strong point. The HC-X1000 isn't the most sensitive camera. It does a fantastic job in adequate light, but it doesn't see in the dark (well, actually it does, but you need to use its nightvision mode for that!)

I have no idea what they might introduce next year; I would guess that any new models going forward are likely to be 4K but that's just a wild, unsubstantiated, speculative guess.

The big advantages of the X1000 over the AC160 series are that it is a much smaller, lighter camera, and that it does 4K resolution, and that its autofocus can be super-quick to lock on. The AC160 holds advantages in connectivity (SDI ports and timecode synchronizing), variable frame rates, sensitivity, and just more overall features (like the waveform, etc). The OIS and autofocus of the X1000 are superior to what the AC160 offers. But I wouldn't say they're neck and neck... I mean, the downconverted 1080 from the X1000 can look better than the native recordings of the AC160, but if you need to shoot in low-light areas, the AC160 is just going to do better than the X1000 will. The auto mode of the

For low light the HMC150 is decent, the AC160 is better, and the HC-X1000 is not in their same class. It's more on par with the HMC40 and AC90. It can do fine with moderate gain, but too much gain will start to be noticeable.
 
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