New P2 cards! 50% cheaper!!

Pro:

Don't you charge rental or gear charge to clients for your P2 cards? Have they not paid for themselves yet? How much profit have they made you? I only own six P2 cards and my cards have made me quite a lot of profit over the past two years.

Dan
 
We can argue either way pointlessly because Panasonic will do what they want to do to make sure their buttom lines come out positive. The one thing I'm pretty sure all of us P2 users wouldn't mind and won't have any arguments on is an affordable price or an alternative such as an adapter to use way cheaper SD Cards.

Don't get me wrong, I like the P2 technology but trust me gentlemen and ladies, when you're out there somewhere in the remote villages of some third world country shooting for four weeks, run and gun without the luxury of a studio, you will wish you have many extra P2 cards to just pop in and continue shooting. Trust me on this one...I have been there and many times I am just about pulling all my hairs out. That's my ten copper coins with Abe Lincoln on it.
 
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pro---studio said:
All other vendors use simple and cheap SD cards - only Panny goes another way. That makes me really sad.
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Well then, allow me to make you happy: your statement is COMPLETELY wrong.

Sony does not let you use simple and cheap SD cards. Sony sells SxS cards. Canon doesn't offer any sort of tapeless option whatsoever in its "pro" line. And Panasonic DOES let you use simple and cheap SD cards, in the AVCCAM line. So JVC and Panasonic are the two manufacturers that offer and sell professional cameras that record to SD.

Happy now?

So please Panny - go and have some faith in your customers and provide a P2/SD Adapter.
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That will never happen. Ever. Panasonic's whole marketing campaign is "When It Counts" -- meaning, no matter what, no matter where, no matter anything, you can always count on P2 working absolutely reliably. There is no possible way under any circumstances that they would then open up a Pandora's box of people using $2 SD cards that they have absolutely no control over.

Look at the hassle people have in trying to find out what "magical combination" of SD cards and ExpressCard->SD adapters will work, and to what degree, with the EX1. No way is Panasonic going to open that door.

If you buy a P2 camera, and you put a P2 card in it (whether from Panasonic, Fuji, or Maxell, as long as it has the "P2" logo on it and meets the specifications), it's going to work in every case, every time, under any circumstances, in any weather, at any frame rate, with every codec they've ever released. That's what P2 is about.

If you want to use SD cards, please just step on over to the AVCCAM lineup. You can use off-the-shelf SD cards to your heart's content.

Panasonic *refused* to put HDV in the HVX200, and they have refused to come out with any sort of uncontrolled pell-mell mishmash of memory card recording in their premium line. They've bet the entire company on P2.

For some reason you seem to think that their strategy isn't working? P2 now accounts for (by Panasonic's estimate) 85% of the tapeless HD broadcasting in Europe. It's about 75% of the tapeless HD acquisition in America. Their strategy is working very well, so why should they change?

They're not going to. If you want SD memory recording, they offer AVCCAM for that.
 
Hey Barry, I like the size, feel, rough, tough, and ruggedness of the P2 card. I just wish they are a lot cheaper...which I'm sure Panasonic can do but they have the monopoly, so I'll deal with the hassle of hauling all the other equipments to remote locations. However, I'm an optimistic kind of a guy. Therefore I will remain optimistic that the price of the P2 card will come down to a much more affordable price for small guys like me. That will be the day.

Cheers, gentlemen.
 
Hi Barry and all the others,

I agree with everything you said. P2 is a really stable and great format and I love to work with the cards.

I agree also with the argument that the P2 cards that I have got paid themselves allready. That is not the point.

To me the point (and huge problem of P2) is the price of the cards because the P2 workflow is not closed with this price strategy. I cannot put the full P2 cards with the recorded material on my shelve. I will have to invest again in tape backup or BluRay (where nobody knows how long a disk will rermain error free). That means you have to buy more stuff and take the time to copy the material. So the price for P2 shooting rises with that. If I had a medium that is 30-60$ I could use it also for archiving. I could even give it to my clients and charge them for that without a problem. That is what I want. I think that is (for me) the main disadvantage in the P2 format.

Although I would never change my mind and go to Sony or another vendor. The only thing is: I don't like the argument, that Panny can now drop the prices by half only because of "life-limited" cards. That is only a lame excuse from Panny to the recent card customers that paid the whole price.

Cheers

Pro
 
Hi Pro__studio,

what level of uptake/usage by broadcasters and/or production houses in Germany use P2 compared to the Sony camp of products.
And do you believe the P2 card price drop will get more P2 out there in your back yard ?

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
 
pro---studio said:
To me the point (and huge problem of P2) is the price of the cards because the P2 workflow is not closed with this price strategy. I cannot put the full P2 cards with the recorded material on my shelve. I will have to invest again in tape backup or BluRay (where nobody knows how long a disk will rermain error free).
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So it is with ANY other non tape-based workflow.

pro---studio said:
That means you have to buy more stuff and take the time to copy the material. So the price for P2 shooting rises with that.
Click to expand...

As it does with ANY tapeless workflow.


pro---studio said:
If I had a medium that is 30-60$ I could use it also for archiving. I could even give it to my clients and charge them for that without a problem. That is what I want. I think that is (for me) the main disadvantage in the P2 format.
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You mean like LTO tape, which is $35 USD per 800gb cartridge?

All manufacturers are committed to tapeless acquisition. This isn't a Panasonic-centric workflow issue.
 
I will point it out again if you didn't read my postings:

If I could use a SD card for shooting, I could give the SD card away to my client or put it in my archive. I cannot do this with a P2 card because it's too expensive. It would make broadcaster life so much easier if I could give the media away again or use the media that I shot with for my archive. No expensive archive solution - no waste of time to copy the files.

Any other vendor goes in the SD card direction. Yes Sony has it's SXS cards but you can also record on a SD card if you want and if you have the right adaptor. I don't think why anyone would buy expensive SXS cards if you can use inexpensive SD cards. And that is the only reason why Panny doesn't make an adaptor.

I don't know why it is so complicated to get the point.

Cheers

Pro
 
one question does come up - what happens when this new series of card fails - does it report failure before you record OR do you lose data for that last time you use the card?
 
@tom_4

P2 is not that huge in germany. All big TV-Stations (beside ZDF and MDR) still use Digibeta or XD-Cam. Panasonic really wants to get in there but Sony is still the biggest selling vendor here.

Digibeta is still the biggest shooting format here in germany. That's because you can give your shooting media to the editor after shooting. I even bought my 500 from a MDR (TV-Station) cameraman and sold him my old SDX900 because he could not work with P2 because of the media problem. With the SDX he was able again to hand out the footage directly to the author after shooting.

When it comes to independent filmers the opposite is true. The HVX200 had a huge success in that scene and I still think that Panny has the biggest spreading there. Although Sony steps forward with the EX1 and EX3 which have a sharper picture (but rolling shutter), and cheaper media.

@smelni
Panasonic has stated that the new cards will warn you when they are near their end of life.

Cheers

Pro.
 
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pathfinder said:
Hey Barry, I like the size, feel, rough, tough, and ruggedness of the P2 card. I just wish they are a lot cheaper...
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Sure. And I love the size, feel, look, slickness, and power of the BMW 5-series. I just wish it was a lot cheaper too. But it isn't. :thumbsup:

which I'm sure Panasonic can do but they have the monopoly
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Fuji and Maxell are both offering cards, so it doesn't mean that it's a monopoly. And if there's a monopoly, it's because the market has granted them a monopoly. And, again, they offer AVCCAM with a completely open recording format, SD cards, so you have a choice of what to buy. If you really like the BMW M-5, but your price tag says you can only afford a Dodge Omni GLH, then you get the GLH and move on, right?

We'd all love to get HPX3700s for $1500. But it isn't gonna happen.

Therefore I will remain optimistic that the price of the P2 card will come down to a much more affordable price for small guys like me. That will be the day.
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They just slashed the price to a little over 1/3 of what it was. I don't expect the cards to ever cost much less than maybe $300 at the rock bottom, because the basic computer hardware of the P2 card looks like it costs about $200.

Again, you can get AVCCAM today, with a 32-gig card for under $100.
 
Points taken. However, it's a bit of an extreme comparison analogy on the HPX3700 and the BMW to the P2 card there but...How about we tell BMW to slash their prices 1/3 as well. I think I can manage to drive one out of their lot with 1/3 less money. I have always wanted to drive a BMW. :=)

How about this thought. The HPX 500 is the BMW. The P2 cards are the tires that rolls the car around. I just wish I have the same options to put cheaper tires on. They may be cheap tires but in the end, they achieved the same purpose...giving me a smooth ride to my destination. Over the years, I've found that the generic brands are just as good as the brand names with twice the price.

It's not popular to go against the norm but I'm still optimistic the price will come down even more in a couple of years. I'm sure most people wouldn't mind that.

Don't take my arguments too seriously, it's just my humble ten copper coins worth of thoughts.
 
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Simple question:

If you're so concerned about the price of P2 cards, and so convinced of the reliability of SD media, why not use the P2 cards for acquisition of content, then copy the data off to an SD card and give the SD card to your editor?

You get everything you asked for, in terms of not having to worry about getting the card back, and having something cheap you can use to permanently store the content on the shelf. You get the reliability of P2 for capturing the content in the first place, and can reuse the cards near endlessly, and if you're convinced that the SD cards are just as reliable, then you can store your HD media on cheap SD cards, giving you a backup solution.

Seems to me like it's the best of both worlds IF you trust the reliablity of SD for copying and long-term storage.
 
Hey that is a really good idea. I will definintely try this. But it doesn't change the fact that you have to spend (often much) time for copying the cards.

And you need a laptop everytime on location which is sometimes really difficult if you are far away from a power plug.
 
Barry:

I had a new 2003 BMW 325i, you know, the Car and Driver Best List Winner for the past few decades? The ultimate driving machine part was right, it was a really fun car to drive. But it was the most fragile, poorly built car with the worst fit and finish I have ever owned.

1. In the 36 months I owned it, it had 18 dealer visits for repair

2. The rain gutter along the rear door sill broke 8 times and was replaced eight times

3. Driver window motor died while window was down. Of course, had to make an appointment for a week later so driving around a car with the window rolled down for a week was fun. So was parking it in public

4. Three holes worn through in rear seat even though I rarely had anyone ride in the rear seat

4. Defective brake master cylinder almost killed me once going into a turn at high speed, no brakes all of sudden

I won't bore you with the whole list but my friend when I was car shopping told me, "don't buy a BMW, they are built like crap. My mom has lemon law returned four of her 7 series, they are bad." I didn't listen to him and I really should have. I couldn't lemon law mine because it was rarely the same problem over and over, it was always something new other than the rain gutter.

You don't want a BMW, trust me. Get a Lexus.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
You don't want a BMW, trust me. Get a Lexus.

Dan
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Or just a Toyota.....and using the premium that Lexus adds on a better camera or lens:Drogar-Happy(DBG):

But regarding P2, SD archiving.

There is a reason why every form of critical backup in business still are done with data tapes and not cheap SD/SSD systems, flash memory are not reliable enough for long therm archiving. When stored correctly LTO tape are usually safe for about 30 years.

I will most likely invest in a LTO3 system and store the tapes in a fireproof safe, yes I'm paranoid after loosing 2TB of data from a new quality raid array. A good LTO3 streamer will be about 1500$.
 
Do you have any recommends on a good LTO streamer? I have used DLT with the Quantum SLT6000 and while it was good, the price was ridiculous.

Dan
 
I'm currently looking around to what's available, just started to look into to what's what. Afraid that I won't be of much help at the moment.
 
When video prople like me, who are not TOTAL computer nerds (I am definitely only a partial computer nerd) start to research this sort of technology, the descriptions are always geared toward backing up enterprise Databases and stuff like that, not dealing with video.

Perhaps someone who knows video and computers really well will chime in?

Dan

Dan
 
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