New Handheld video cameras coming out?

ripupthehwy

ripupthehwy

Well-known member
I doubt I'm the only one that's thought of this or mentioned it. Anyway, I can't imagine Canon or Panasonic not taking the guts from their 7D or GH1 and throwing them inside of their Camcorder housings, giving you that great shallow DOF and high quality HD video along with real camcorder type audio recording capabilities, viewfinder, etc and a zoomable lens for those that want it. That could put them in direct competition with the likes of Red Scarlett coming out.....one day.
 
Justin Kuhn said:
They already are. Google "Canon 1D Mk IV Nocturne"

Performance beats form factor.
Click to expand...

Hardly. Aliasing, moire, etc. Blah. It's all there still.

Camcorder form factor and engineering, with an appropriate aliasing filter over these larger sensors, faster scan time to eliminate rolling shutter and EOS mounts is what we are looking for.
 
It may seem weird but large sensors are a stupid idea

everything is out of focus

large lenses required - big heavy expensive glass

only dumb indy filmmakers (like every one on these boards) would want such stupidity

ask any soccer mom or sony handycam developer

Being serious I dont know the market size - Id love a nikon D3 with no alaising, XLR input 1080 120p RAW for $8000 but what is the actual market size for such a beast and related workflow nightmare ??

features like upload to youtube on a camera would sell shift more stock (im afraid)

S
 
Before people go attacking morgan, he's right -- that's exactly why cameras are the way they are. Those of us who want the big sensors and shallow DOF are definitely in a small minority of overall camera users.

I might not agree with Morgan's choice of words (calling all of us dumb and saying what we want is stupidity) but the concept is sound, that small sensors are far more user-friendly.

With that said, I think the success of 24p in video cameras has proven that there are enough of us out there that we will see something developed from one of the major manufacturers before too long -- I mean, how can they not? However, I think lenses are going to be the major problem; SLR lenses are nothing like camcorder lenses and to market a "video camera" it's going to need a video-camera-like lens. Other than that, just stuff a GH1's guts in an HPX170 body, bolt on a m4/3 lens mount, put in a proper AA filter, and let it record to AVC-Intra, and we're there...
 
I did include myself in the dumb category :) - I think we are seen as a bit dumb by the designers of the cameras who are dug away somewhere in R+D land or at least the even more out of touch company excec who tell them what to do

conversly there are a lot of photographers (such as myself) moving to video who have always been baffled by the lack of manual control and tiny sensors of handycams and even EX1s

S
 
Last edited:
morgan_moore said:
I did include myself in the dumb category :) - I think we are seen as a bit dumb by the designers of the cameras who are dug away somewhere in R+D land or at least the even more out of touch company excec who tell them what to do

conversly there are a lot of photographers (such as myself) moving to video who have always been baffled by the lack of manual control and tiny sensors of handycams and even EX1s

S
Click to expand...

im not baffled in the least by the simplicity of camcorders to just shoot and have the "shots in focus" strategy of most of the sub $8,000 cameras and especially the 1/3" and smaller than 1/3" sensors. as a still photographer we want out shot in focus right? why wouldnt we want the same thing in a camcorder. not the LCD's nor the eyepiece viewfinders are able to really illustrate whether you are in focus or not adequately enough IMO. you really need a good quality 7" or 8" external LCD to grab focus. so keeping it simple with a small sensor camcorder where focus isnt a struggle clearly has its place...especially for the masses which quite a few people on these boards are not.

if i want to deal with shallow DOF then i will shoot a DSLR and deal with focus with a Zfinder/Hoodman which is still very tough to pull great focus. but if im required to "cover" an event that is fluid and quick moving to just get the shots then a standard video camcorder will easily allow me to that much better than a camcorder that cant shoot deep focus easily...unless there is gobs of light.

the appropriate tool for the job. IMO there is a place for all the cameras to co-exist happily together.

morgan_moore...you put the EX1 in the same category as the handycam ...im curious though, what specifically do you find lacking from the EX1 as far as manual controls?

thanks
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
The Ex1 is like a handy cam in..

hard to control WB

tiny chip

fixed lens which lacks 'proper wide'

(lack of RAW ?)

I also think it is a great camera that I would pick over any DSLR in a stiuation where aquiring useable footage of a real time event is the primary mission

Oh - and it has ergonomics that make it almost usable without a rig
 
The fact is, tiny sensor prosumer cameras are already out there in abundance.

I think that a forward thinking company will spot the gap in the market and take advantage .... my money is on panasonic, who have always had an eye out for the indie filmmaker.

If, as I suspect, a company like this is producing this type of camera, they could also swoop in and steal alot of the RED user base who are probably growing very tired of the wait and seeing price increases.

4/3 seems wise to me...... fairly easy focus pull at around f4-5.6 but can go very shallow with a fast lens.

If Panasonic, or whoever, dropped out a 4/3 cam with no jello, no aliasing etc, pro video features, a good codec, 1080/60p, interchangable lens mount and some good auto focus zoom lenses.... they would clean up, if the price was under $8k.
 
Last edited:
4/3 doesnt float my boat - or anyone else with a case or two of 35FF DSLR glass that they want to re-use in the video world


Also red doesnt seem that expensive to me..

if you are doing a decent production you are probably going to be paying 5 people and Red Rental is a small % of that

ONe of the great things about EX1 (etc) is that they dont take a couple of people to use unlike red or even DLSLRs

S
 
It depends if you are buying the kit purely for film/cinema, in which case an s35/FF sensor would be ideal..... I think any company who takes a step into this arena will try and make it fit in a middle ground between film and broadcast/documentary type work though. 4/3 seems a good comprimise (and with lens adapters, your lenses wouldn't have such a terrible crop factor). What is it, 1:1.6 or so?

Imagine a FF system with an auto focus zoom lens.... would it be able to perform on the same level we are used to with cameras like the HVX and EX1?

re: RED.... it isn't expensive..... but it isn't affordable to the masses either...... if you have $15k+ for a setup, then... on paper at least, it is about the as good as it gets for value... if not, you are looking at the fixed lens 2/3" setup. We will have to wait and see how good that would be for making a feature (could be great for broadcast)

I have had my eye on the scarlet s35 since it was announced.... but I just don't see it coming out this year, maybe ever. It seems to sit in a very awkward place for RED.... between the high end epics and the 2/3"s. I don't see enough difference between an Epic s35 and Scarlet s35 to warrant an extra $20k or so..... I think RED might have sussed this too and will leave the scarlet s35 on the back burner for a long, long time.... just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
I think the existence of 4/3 and crop sensor still cameras is evidence enough that there are enough hobbyists out there that want something capable of producing more professional results but still in a semi affordable price range.

No professional photographer would even consider these and yet they stay in the market; someone is buying them. Not to mention that there are A LOT of film students out there where something in the $2-4k price range is not totally out of the price range for a nice Christmas or graduation gift from the rents.

In regards to situations where you have one chance to get a critical shot at a live event, I think lack of back focus in SLR glass is a bigger hindrance than shallow DoF. (except maybe on Full Frame).
 
my hunch is that none of the major players like canon, panasonic, sony, jvc will offer anything like a 4/3 or s35 (1.6x) let alone a FF for cheap just because people should or want them too.

i guess they could but why would they. i think they will charge a premium once they put real video features and ergo into a big sensor body. i might want one too but i dont expect it to come cheap.

maybe a 1.5/1.6 crop with a functional video camera form factor with interchangable lenses but cant imagine it coming in for under 7-10k.

ill also bet that most of these companies will be ready to respond to the scarlet (if it ever shows) at near the snap of a finger....and no it doesnt even need to be as robust but could be more appealing out of the box than a red....and avabilable.

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
You'll see them offer an APS-C sensor (S35) precisely because people want them to. Their APS-C is not an exotic sensor by any means. Canon throws them into their cheapest DSLRS. They make them by the boat load. it simply is the cheapest thing for them to use now that they have an understanding of the market. There's no way you'll see this S35 Cine video camera priced over $5,000, and they'll do it just to crush Red as well as make a killer profit for themselves. Price performance barriers are shattered all the time. I need only point to the audio recording industry. You can do in audio today for under $10,000 what would have exceeded well over $100,000 a decade or more ago.
 
f64manray said:
You'll see them offer an APS-C sensor (S35) precisely because people want them to. Their APS-C is not an exotic sensor by any means. Canon throws them into their cheapest DSLRS. They make them by the boat load. it simply is the cheapest thing for them to use now that they have an understanding of the market. There's no way you'll see this S35 Cine video camera priced over $5,000, and they'll do it just to crush Red as well as make a killer profit for themselves. Price performance barriers are shattered all the time. I need only point to the audio recording industry. You can do in audio today for under $10,000 what would have exceeded well over $100,000 a decade or more ago.
Click to expand...

i agree that the APS-C is not exotic in a DSLR for photos but "would be very exotic" for a video camera non DSLR form factor. its basically the S35...and that would be hot!

it would definitely rain on the RED world of scarlet as well. i just dont think we are going to see 1.6x sensors in a video camera selling for $2,500 with interchanglable lenses though....at least not yet. i do agree that if the scarlet ever hits the streets canon and others will have the power to easily rain on RED's releases. it doesnt have to be better IQ either to put the hurt on them. they could do it with solid IQ (fix alaising/morie), features, out of box ease...and price. to get into the S35 scarlet it not cheap. this is why i dont think canon or the others will sell a 1.5 or 1.6x video camera for anywhere what people want them to be. canon doesnt give anything away. if you paid less for something...then you got less. you pay more you get more.

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
I was thinking about people saying that the broadcast industry wouldn't be keen to move from 2/3" to s35 due to DOF.... but with the advances in ISO, we are not far away from being able to close the F-stop right down to a 2/3" style DOF, upping the ISO and still having a very clean image.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top