New E Cards: A Warning re: Life Expectancy

nedcam

nedcam

Well-known member
So I was just about to order three of the new E cards because I had read in a post by product manager Jan Crittendon that they will last for five years even if you shoot every day. "Wow" I thought, this is a great savings. However, I just received this advice from The Tape Company regarding how the new E card won't last anywhere near the "five years" that everyone is talking about. Below is the link but here is the gist of the warning:

EMAIL FROM TAPE COMPANY: "The card will last a maximum of 5 years, if used only for its respective record time once per day. For example, if you use your 16GB to record 16 minutes of HD footage per day (and no more) the card would last five years. But how many professional videographers only record 16 minutes of video a day? Let's take another look at the "E" series recording capacities within a real case scenario. If you are shooting 60 minutes of HD video that means you would be reusing that same P2 card 4X each day, your card would last about 1.25 years. If you're reusing the card 16X a day, or recording about 4 hours of HD to the card each day, the "E" series card would last less than four months."

ME AGAIN: If the above is TRUE, and my new E cards would have crapped out in the middle of a documentary in the middle of nowhere, I would be furious with Panasonic. I am an old Sony centric DP about to make the move to the Panasonic HD P2 world and now I don't know if I can trust what they tell us shooters. The rep's post said "5 years" but there seems to be a caveat. I feel like I'm in a car dealer showroom when it comes to discovering the truth about things, like CMOS Jellovision and flash band (the firmware fix doesn't look so good if you have several flashes in a row, like a machine gun or lightning effect, there's still a horizontal line for each flash).

So...can someone please tell me the TRUTH before I make a mistake? I'd rather pay more money for peace of mind, or perhaps since I've been sitting on the fence maybe I'll fall on the XDCAM side. Here's the link:

http://www.thetapecompany.com/Library/InfoManage/Zoom.asp?FolderID=728&InfoID=471

Regards,

Ned
 
That is interesting, Ned, thanks. I only wish it was a more independent source for the information - not a reseller that stands to make more money by selling the "A" series over the "E" series.

Perhaps we can get some commentary (and confirmation?) from the resident Panasonic folks who frequent these forums?

I just purchased a 32GB "E" series card with my HPX300. Now I'm wondering if that was a mistake in the long run?
 
From the article:
"The "A" series of P2 cards can last a hundred years or more when recorded to every day for an unlimited number of hours everyday." (emphasis mine)

From Panasonic's website:
"Current A and recent generation R and H series P2 cards have a service life of one hundred years or more when filled with data and overwritten once a day." (again, emphasis mine)

Note "once a day" on Panasonic's site, versus "an unlimited number of hours everyday" on tapeonline's article.

Maybe they're right, maybe they're not. But compare their info with the manufacturerss and you'll notice discrepencies, which makes you wonder how factual the entire thing is.

Hopefully Jan (or Barry) will chime in with more info here to either confirm the article or point out any misconceptions.

Michael
 
It means one thing definitenly.....bigger is better, lol. A 32 will last twice as long as a 16...64 twice as long as 32....etc. etc. etc.

I want to preface the following with saying it's based on the HVX-200, as that's what I use...I'm guessing most of this is very similar to the 300:

I wouldn't freek out about the 32g card you purchased. It was hella cheap and will last for about 2500+ hours of recording(at 72024PN)....That's doing all of your recording to just one 32g card for an hour and 24 minutes each and every day for 5 years straight.

I'm looking into getting two 64gb E series cards. I want to be able to effectivelly film in 1080, and I figure 128G of total card should do it(not to mention the two 16g A serries cards I have now). This will give me the ability to film at 1080 for 2 hours and 16 minutes each and every day for 5 years straight.

Will I ever film for over 2 hours in one day in the next 5 years? Yes. Will it be often? No. What kind of situation would bring about this kind of run time? A documentary. How many Documentaries do I anticipate either filming or renting camera to in the next five years? A maximum of 50, and that's pushing the numbers pretty high. How many Maximum hours of recording would I anticipate for each Documentary? 100 hours, and again that's pushing it...most Docs I run into fly in for a certain period in an event/person/creatures life for a week and roll for a max of 14 hours a day....and that's on the HIGH side...usually it'd be more like 4 hours of rolling a day.

So if I personally rented or filmed 50 Documentaries in the next 5 years which all by some strange fluke of the nature of the universe wanted to film for 14 hours a day for a week straight...that would come up to 4900 hours of filming. If also by some strange fluke of nature they all wanted to film in 1080 on my HVX then Yes my cards would fail in about 4 years, and I'd have to buy some new ones.

This is a ridiculous situation, and will never happen....but it's absolute worst case scenario....well atleast for the cards it is...I wish I would really get 50 week long Doc rentals/camera work gigs in the next five years, lol.

A more normal situation is 5 hours a day every third day, and filmed at 72024PN.....Anyone out there that is filming each and every day for 5+ hours a day LET ME KNOW, and I'll move out to where you are and take some of that load off....If one were to do as I want to and get 2 64g P2 cards that would come out to:
10,000+ hours of total operation
with the above filming schedule a total of 3000+ hours every five years

This means if you have a 2-3 gigs every weeks that run 3-6 hours each that if you have 2 64g E-series cards....they will last you 15 years.

What is probably more normal would be two 32g cards or two 16g cards....two E-series 32's on 2-3 gigs a week at 3-6 hours each would last 7-8 years....the same shooting schedule with 16g E-series cards would last almost 4 years.

Lets face it....that's a damn good shooting schedule, and as long as you aren't a total sucker and working for peanuts, you should be able to pay for some new media....and hell you'll probably buy a new camera before you wear out those cards.

If you went bargain basement and got 2 16g E-series cards and had that shoot schedule and charged $400 a day, you'd drag in $48,000 gross....I think after 4 years of grossing 48k you could un-loosen your butt a tad to pay for some new cards.
 
Okay, here's the deal, for the millionth time: nobody is "lying", nobody is "scamming", nobody is a "car dealer."

SLC memory is good for 100,000 rewrite cycles. MLC memory is good for 10,000 rewrite cycles. Done. End of story. No magic or wizardry is going to change that. Flash memory wears out. CompactFlash, SD, SxS, SSD, or P2, it all wears out, it all has limited rewrite cycles.

"A" series cards are made of SLC memory. "E" series cards are made of MLC memory. "A" series cards cost more, and last longer, because they use SLC memory. "E" series cards are cheaper, and last a shorter time, and are faster, because they use MLC memory.

Panasonic says the "A" series cards are good for 100,000 rewrite cycles.

Panasonic says the "E" series cards are good for "5 years, when used once a day". That comes out to around 2,000 rewrite cycles.

The "5 years" is a confusing thing, it distracts people and confuses the issue. An "E" series card can last 50 years, if you use it once every 10 days. It could last 500 years, if you used it three times a year. Or it could last 4 months, if you used it round the clock. And, if that's your intention, then inherently a 32GB card would last twice as long as a 16GB, and a 64GB card would last twice as long as a 32GB (or 4x as long as a 16GB). So any attempt to equate the rewrite cycles with the lifespan is fraught with confusion.

Personally, I think Panasonic is being grossly conservative with their estimates, because the way I read MLC vs. SLC, they're only guaranteeing 2,000 rewrites when the real number should (theoretically) be closer to 10,000. I don't know why they say 2,000; maybe there's a reason. I would think they'd last longer, but that is only my guess based on the differences in general between SLC and MLC.

So it all comes down to how much you intend to use the card. If you intend to fill it up 20x a day, then you'd be crazy to buy the "E" series cards instead of the "A" series. The "A" series will last at least 10x longer, if not 50x longer, and they cost less than 3x as much. Obviously it would be far more cost efficient, for a megauser, to go with the "A" series. And that's why the "A" series is still offered.

But for more occasional users, guys who shoot one day and then go into post for two or three days, the "E" series may be everything they need.

At the end of the day, the old adage still applies: you don't get something for nothing. If you want the lower price and faster speed of the "E" series card, you have to give up something, and that something is the incredibly long lifespan. If you want the incredibly long lifespan, you have to give up something, and that something is some dough.
 
I have to agree with Nick- I wouldn't freak out. The E-series is a great savings, but at a cost of life span.

It would be silly to shoot and offload the same 16GB card 16X a day. What a time waster. With 32GB or even better 64GB cards, you will be filling up/wiping less. Unless you are working for a news station and shooting for stories EVERY day, it shouldn't be a huge concern. And if it is, simply don't buy the E-series card. That's why the R-Series still exists.

You should trust Jan and what she says around here– just the fact that a Panasonic rep has a presence on this board speaks very highly of their customer service priorities.

The company that emailed you, they *COULD* (not pointing fingers, just suggesting) be trying to push you to purchase a more expensive card. Notice they don't mention what kind of HD gives you 16 minutes only on a 16GB card. I shoot 720/24pn HD footage 80% of the time, and I get like 42 minutes with that, not 16.

I hope that you find a solution that works for you, which is what product purchasing is all about, and hopefully you've gotten some answers and insight here.
 
The way I've been shooting lately, that E card would me last 50 years... (sigh)
Barry always brings back simple LOGIC to this forum
 
Thanks to Barry and the others who responded. I feel satisfied in my purchase of the "E" series card now that it has been more completely explained. I can attest to there being A LOT of misinformation and/or complete lack of knowledge out there. My dealer - and even someone at Panasonic I spoke to (who shall remain nameless because they're otherwise decent) - told me there was "basically no difference" between the "E" series and more expensive "A" (or other letter) series P2 cards. The only thing they did note was that the "E" series were faster at transferring data.
 
I only knew A serie and E serie P2 card but there seem to be also R-serie and H-serie P2 cards??? Can someone explain me the difference?

Butcher said:
From the article:

From Panasonic's website:
"Current A and recent generation R and H series P2 cards have a service life of one hundred years or more when filled with data and overwritten once a day." (again, emphasis mine)

.
Michael
Click to expand...
 
"R" was the series prior to "A".

I don't know what "H" is, maybe those were the original 4GB and 8GB cards?

Assuming so...
H = 4GB and 8GB, 100,000 rewrites, 640 mbps
R = 16GB and 32GB, 100,000 rewrites, 640 mbps
A = 16GB, 32GB, and 64GB, 100,000 rewrites, 800mbps
E = 16/32/64GB, 2000-10000 rewrites, 1200mbps
 
does anyone have any idea when the 64gb e cards will be released? i kept hearing august, but now no retailers seem to have any idea. panasonic is apparently not talking. anyone here have different info?
 
I do not know one shooter who is using the same P2 cards they had three years ago never mind 5. I have 2 32G E cards, I no longer have to worry about dumping when shooting 720, and occasionally I go to my third card when shooting 1080. In three years, when the 128G cards are about what I paid for these cards I will be happy to get new ones. And by the way I will still have two 32s to use for at least 3-5 years because no shooter shoots more than 280 days a year, that is an outstanding year, heck 230 days is fantastic as a shooter, 365 uses a year, not going to happen, unless you plan on getting on the crazy burnout bus.
 
Hi, People,

The bigger the better, so if you buy a "E" 64Gb card i will last 5 years, costing about 1k and the "A" series cost 2.6k. Really? for the 1.6k diference a cam buy another 64Gb "E" card and a 2 batteries, i think the "E" series is the solution for 90% of market. I bought a 16gb ( i wish i bought a bigger one but no stock). and i am very happy. i think there is nothing to think about. it works. even if it broke in 1 year it pays itself.

my 2 cent

Damian
 
E Series = great solution!

When I first looked into them I realized for $995 (64g) I can shoot for over an hour in 1080, they have a lifespan of 2,500 hours.

My hvx is 3 years old and has 475 hours on it, that is roughly 160 hours per year, at that rate it would take me 16 years to wear out the 64g E series card, if I buy 2 and I probably will it will take 32 years to wear them out at the rate I shoot.

I can assure you they will be obsolete in 3 years like the 4 gig cards are now.

If your recording lots of footage per day get the 64's at $995, not sure why you'd want to use 16 gig cards if your recording 4 hours a day.

Look at the past size increases on the P2 cards, in 3 years from now they will proabably have 256 gig P2 Cards or larger for less than $995.

E Series is the best thing, wish it would have happened sooner.
 
What is this reference to CMOS jellovision - I have just won a HPX302EN and I noticed that when I zoom in on a subject the frame wobbles - like jelly - in the viewfinder. How do I fix this issue?
 
NOT, you can only minize it by using slow pans (1080/24p seems to give slightly worse results than the EX1/3 the other formats are better than than EX1/3).

Buy the way where can you win a HPX302 ???????

lordbiggus said:
What is this reference to CMOS jellovision - I have just won a HPX302EN and I noticed that when I zoom in on a subject the frame wobbles - like jelly - in the viewfinder. How do I fix this issue?
Click to expand...
 
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