New camera announcements from Canon
- Thread starter alaskacameradude
- Start date
Samuel H
Major Contributor
Talking photography here:
I know a bunch of photographers, and I follow some great ones over the internet. Most of them are Canon shooters, with some 20% Nikon also there, and a couple that shoot medium format. Out of all of those, basically all except one or two have an E-mount camera as well as of today. A friend who owns a 1DX and >$10K worth of L glass got the a7R a few moths back, and I haven't seen his 1DX since. He probably takes it when he covers sports, but for everything else he has gone Sony. And that's the a7R, not the II.
The thing with photography is that there's a lot of inertia, because people already own a lot of glass and it's expensive to switch. But Canon should keep in mind that this argument works both ways, and that in a mirrorless future almost everybody will have to get new glass anyway. With those sports shooters you posted being almost the single exeption (though a very lucrative one).
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Shut up, Samuel! You are not in LA! ;-)
LOL
Greetings from a few kilometres away of you : D
- Emanuel
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Well said, pal
I think it was looking like that:
***Canon's headquaters****
- Guys, have you seen this?! Sony will soon announce another camera...
Everyone in the room:
- ......
- Ok, this cannot be like that! We will do announcement too. TODAY!
- what!?? But what product!!?
- 8K!!!
- HOW?!
- Just take a photo of one of our lenses, C500 slap an 8K badge in photoshop and we're good to go! And then tomorrow we will think about developing it.
- Good idea, LET'S DO IT!
*****
At least Canon is waking up
***Canon's headquaters****
- Guys, have you seen this?! Sony will soon announce another camera...
Everyone in the room:
- ......
- Ok, this cannot be like that! We will do announcement too. TODAY!
- what!?? But what product!!?
- 8K!!!
- HOW?!
- Just take a photo of one of our lenses, C500 slap an 8K badge in photoshop and we're good to go! And then tomorrow we will think about developing it.
- Good idea, LET'S DO IT!
*****
At least Canon is waking up
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
I think it was looking like that:
***Canon's headquaters****
- Guys, have you seen this?! Sony will soon announce another camera...
Everyone in the room:
- ......
- Ok, this cannot be like that! We will do announcement too. TODAY!
- what!?? But what product!!?
- 8K!!!
- HOW?!
- Just take a photo of one of our lenses, C500 slap an 8K badge in photoshop and we're good to go! And then tomorrow we will think about developing it.
- Good idea, LET'S DO IT!
*****
At least Canon is waking up
If this is the definition of "waking up" in this industry, that is very sad. I would much rather see companies release really solid products every 3 years than a camera every few months that has some laughable defects.
Me too but I'm afraid those times are gone. Definitely in mid and lower end. It'll be all about providing latest technology, everything is moving too quickly now.
I guess Canon was resisting with many technologies because for them it means changing everything, massive switch. Mirrorless revolution will force them to develop new lineup of all lenses.
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Canon Expo is tomorrow and Friday in NYC. Maybe some photo/video sites will be there and ask further questions.
As to the mirrorless, Canon could get by with a combination of fixed lenses in a bridge camera a la FZ1000 and FZ300 or just go with the adapters like Sony with their A- vs. E-mounts. Their problems are similar to the other photo-video giants in that the low end of the digital models is pretty much "good enough" for the majority of people. Small sensors, largely borrowed from smartphones, are very inexpensive to purchase from third party vendors and are rapidly improving in quality. That makes it a commodity market with nary a profit to be earned. Nikon, whose financial trends look dismal also, has found a huge hit on its hands - it sales outpace its production - in Coolpix 900, with its small/smartphone sensor and an 83x zoom. And as the small sensors keep getting better, as they must to be competitive in the global smartphone business, these bridge cameras satisfy a huge portion of the customer base that isn't already satisfied by the smartphone cameras. Additional negative effect of that is the lack of need to purchase separate and multiple lenses, which are, once again, a major source of profit.
The next step for the Big Boys is to head toward the higher end market but, once the 4K dust settles, every major manufacturer will present a quality product for $500-$700 and that makes the need for 5D series very marginal. There's already an MFT 4K G7 for ~ $600. In two days, Sony should announce A6100/A6000II with presumably similar or better specs. And that will result only in pro shooters needing anything above that.
This is why Canon, like all others in this field, tries to diversify its product offerings. The 250 MPX military/industrial sensor has uses for the applications that will never be limited in its wants. 8K video is the next logical step too. The consumer end, however, looks dire in long term and some consolidation will likely take place. And some Kodak type story lines can't be avoided either.
As to the mirrorless, Canon could get by with a combination of fixed lenses in a bridge camera a la FZ1000 and FZ300 or just go with the adapters like Sony with their A- vs. E-mounts. Their problems are similar to the other photo-video giants in that the low end of the digital models is pretty much "good enough" for the majority of people. Small sensors, largely borrowed from smartphones, are very inexpensive to purchase from third party vendors and are rapidly improving in quality. That makes it a commodity market with nary a profit to be earned. Nikon, whose financial trends look dismal also, has found a huge hit on its hands - it sales outpace its production - in Coolpix 900, with its small/smartphone sensor and an 83x zoom. And as the small sensors keep getting better, as they must to be competitive in the global smartphone business, these bridge cameras satisfy a huge portion of the customer base that isn't already satisfied by the smartphone cameras. Additional negative effect of that is the lack of need to purchase separate and multiple lenses, which are, once again, a major source of profit.
The next step for the Big Boys is to head toward the higher end market but, once the 4K dust settles, every major manufacturer will present a quality product for $500-$700 and that makes the need for 5D series very marginal. There's already an MFT 4K G7 for ~ $600. In two days, Sony should announce A6100/A6000II with presumably similar or better specs. And that will result only in pro shooters needing anything above that.
This is why Canon, like all others in this field, tries to diversify its product offerings. The 250 MPX military/industrial sensor has uses for the applications that will never be limited in its wants. 8K video is the next logical step too. The consumer end, however, looks dire in long term and some consolidation will likely take place. And some Kodak type story lines can't be avoided either.
Others had 4k, internal recording, 3rd generation log gammas and high frame rates more than two years ago. Canon initially was close behind with the C500 and 1DC, but what's the excuse for doing nothing with them? Where's the internal codec? Where's even the most minor of updates to the 1DC? To just now show the C300II concurrent with an announcement they are leading the way with future 8k? It's a basic acknowledgment that quite simply, they thought they could keep 4k an exclusive playground. They were quickly passed and essentially missed the 4k bonanza altogether. The landscape is too competitive. They forfeited leadership. The marketplace doesn't need Canon tech for 8k now and won't care if they are first or last to the pixel party.
philiplipetz
Veteran
The Canon XC10 showed that they will move into the 1" field that is empty of pro cameras, and 1" has many advantages for ENG. 1" XF series would sell boatloads..
Their internal line of reasoning was undoubtedly that C300 was their "it" model much like 5D MKIII was on the enthusiast/pro level and 1D X was on the high end pro level and that the company had to maximize its revenues for as long as these cameras dominated the sales ranks. And so they waited until the market moved toward them unlike, as an example, BMD, which had to lead the market that was dominated by others. In some circles, this is known the "900-lb gorilla" approach - change when you have to but not a second earlier. And it has worked for them so far.
Is this the 8K camera?
http://cinescopophilia.com/converge...ts-that-canon-prototype-8k-cinema-eos-camera/
http://cinescopophilia.com/converge...ts-that-canon-prototype-8k-cinema-eos-camera/
Very well stated but what it meant for me was leaving behind my collection of L-glass Canon lenses and buying $20k of cinema glass from Sony, as well the PMW-F55. It would have been much more economical to have the new C300II but that ship sailed 2 years ago for me, Canon. Anyway, excellent points made DLD, thank you.
The "proof of concept", whatever that means. With four Odyssey Q7+ hooked up to it.
Which is better than the old NHK 8K refrigerator size units that had 17 HD recorders for "stitching" the image together.
Well, that is indeed the risk they are taking. They weren't tackling the high end pro market where F55/65, Red Dragon and Alexa reigned supreme. C500 was actually a decent unit, if one hooked up a Raw recorder to it, perfectly suitable to TV and low budget features. But they went no further and now that the 4K is getting more prevalent in all aspects of the industry, they're releasing C300 MKII and, when the prices for media and the CPU's/GPU's drop even further, they'll have a C500 MKII, with both cameras easily lasting another three-four year cycle. Until 8K.
PS. One should also understand that photo-video companies - especially those based in Japan - make a lot of deals with each other and, often, these giant conglomerates will simply yield given market niches to one another in exchange for an absence of entry into another area. The way, it works is something like this - company X will introduce an innovating product with certain features and in a certain price range and, for a time being, it will face no competition in that segment. That, however, doesn't mean that company X will price its offering like a monopoly - though, in theory, it could - but that, if Company Y had a similar model with similar features at a similar price, then they'd split the market and the associated revenues in two. In exchange, company X agrees not to contest the other segment, where company Y will have a "unique" model. And these "non compete" clauses may last a year or two years per product until it becomes a free-for-all.
The negative aspect of these deals that, if one is locked into a given photo-video system, then it might take a while until a desired product from the same system appears. Meanwhile, the store shelves are stocked with competitors models.
All this would go away, naturally, if there was a universal smart/electronic mount but ... alas ... with the minor exception of the MFT Coalition, the mount is what given these companies their pricing power. If a NIkon could work with Canon and Sony like a Daimler Benz turbo works on Infinity and Toyota, such distinctions would wither. But the auto market is a fight between many car makers from all corners of the globe. The photo/video industry, with minor exceptions, is not.
cpreston
Veteran
It seems that most people think this 8K camera announcement will not be the C500 II. I'm inclined to think that it is intended to be the replacement for the C500. If it isn't, what will the C500 II actually be? Is there a big enough space between the 8K camera and the C300 II for a C500 II? What would the C500 II provide? A faster frame rate and maybe a somewhat better internal codec?
Well, 8K is only a "proof of concept" demo at the moment and probably 2-3 years removed from being shipped (the 2018 Winter Olympics in South Korea or the 2018 World Cup in Russia might be the ETA's) whereas C500 MK II should be introduced around the NAB'16.
As to C500 MKII - s35, 6K, 15 stops off a dual readout, Raw out, ProRes 444 internal. With new fast "3D" SSD's, it might have an internal Raw too. Think Alexa65 specs for $30,000 but without the Medium Format sensor/lenses.
cpreston
Veteran
So, basically, a C300 II with a bigger fan and more expensive media. You are probably right, but if Canon goes this route than I don't see the C500 II doing any better than the first, especially when Canon has already announced a camera that is larger upgrade.
It should have an oversampled 4K. I don't think they can get away with "just 8.8 MPX" out of a ~ $30,000 camera. S35 should be capable of 24-26 quality MPX to give a 17.6 4K (without the rolling shutter problems). The original C300 had a 4k sensor for the 1080p output, so this isn't anything new conceptually to Canon as a company. Besides, Sony's oversampling with A7RII and Panasonic with DVX200 already. Not doing so with a high tier pro model would appear a bit underwhelming.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Well oversampling is nice but not an absolute necessity. Varicam35,Alexa/Amira/Epics/Fs7,F5,F55/C300II/C500 etc all these cameras produce amazing 4K images. 4096x2160 bayer sensor for moving images is enormous, 100% sharp enough for all cinema/video applications.
I'd rather see pushes not up 4K, but up DR, lowlight performance, sensor size. If I can get all AND resolution, I wouldn't mind starting with 60mp Hasselblad-resolution video frames and edit/crop/super-sample. It's just as we see an obvious trade off. C300II 4K, 15 DR and >ISOs, C300II 8K, 13 DR < ISOs. I'd take anything over resolution after reaching the hauntingly sharp UHD.
I'd rather see pushes not up 4K, but up DR, lowlight performance, sensor size. If I can get all AND resolution, I wouldn't mind starting with 60mp Hasselblad-resolution video frames and edit/crop/super-sample. It's just as we see an obvious trade off. C300II 4K, 15 DR and >ISOs, C300II 8K, 13 DR < ISOs. I'd take anything over resolution after reaching the hauntingly sharp UHD.