F5: New 4K XAVC SONY PXW-Z100 for under 5000 Euro ?

My guess is that we may see some footage at IBC. The plan was to announce today and show at IBC. I liked what I saw from the prototype camera. Also keep in mind this is not a cinematic camera in the case of the F5/55 or even the FS700. There are two new models with one being the AVC 4:2:0 consumer camera and the Z100 HD/QHD/4K camera. We were told it would carry a list of $6500 with a street price about $5500. Also note you cannot record 4K and output via SDI simultaneously.

Ned
 
Ned I think it will not output HDMI and SDI at the same time according to the Sony pdf. But does support HD output when recording 4K. One or the other, I think my NX5U is the same.
 
nsoltz said:
My guess is that we may see some footage at IBC. The plan was to announce today and show at IBC. I liked what I saw from the prototype camera. Also keep in mind this is not a cinematic camera in the case of the F5/55 or even the FS700. There are two new models with one being the AVC 4:2:0 consumer camera and the Z100 HD/QHD/4K camera. We were told it would carry a list of $6500 with a street price about $5500. Also note you cannot record 4K and output via SDI simultaneously.

Ned
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why is it not cinematic, other than the obvious ergonomics? How is the image crippled for cinema use. Need feature doc cam. what was your impression of DR?
 
It says that this camera can record 4K 60 fps 10bit 4:2:2 at 600Mbits/s, on XQD memory cards. A 32 GB Sony XQD memory card is 98$ @ B&H now: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/840664-REG/Sony_QD_H32_T_32GB_XQD_Memory_Card.html

My Sony EX1R records 1080p 30 fps 8 bit 4:2:0 at 35mbits/s and it's suggested to use SxS media on the camera. A 32 GB SxS-1 memory card is 338$ on B&H now: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/737242-REG/Sony_SBS_32G1A_SxS_1_G1A_32GB_Memory.html (and that's a SxS-1, not SxS pro)

Now i remember those people praising SxS cards on Ex cameras over SDHC media all over the internet and would like to hear their opinion on this matter. (a recent discussion was on this forum too and can be found here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?307307-HELP-with-sony-ex1)

Another thing: didn't they release PMW-200 just one year ago? Currently it's sold for $6,299.00 on B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/884602-REG/Sony_PMW_200_XDCAM_HD422_Camcorder.html
How can this new camera be under 5k$/e? It's doing 60fps at 4K... Who would buy pmw200 over this?

Some people may and will call this camera an innovation but i'd say it's just another scam from Sony. I bought an Ex1r as my first camera but i wouldn't spend another penny on any Sony product again (i'm happy with the ex1r due to shot transition feature alone, but that's it). They don't deserve it.

I think their approach to this so called 'innovation' thingy is very unethical but who cares. They make enough money out of this, don't they?
 
ex1r777 said:
How can this new camera be under 5k$/e? It's doing 60fps at 4K... Who would buy pmw200 over this?
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The PMW200 is three 1/2" chips. This new camera is a single 1/3" sensor (the chip is technically 1/2.3", but it ignores almost half the chip and only uses the central 1/3").

There will be reasons the PMW200 is worth more money than this new camera. There are reasons the new camera is less expensive than the PMW200. There is still some rationality behind their product organization and tiers.
 
Low light will be the test I think. For a chip size just a little bigger than the ones in my CX700 and NX30U it may be enough to get similar performance. In practical terms my CX700 and NX30U are much better in low l ight than my NX5U. So the AX1 may well be a nice complement to the NX5U or even replace it for me. The Z100 is a little over kill and since all my stuff is theatre I want long record times. The AX1 with also recording AVCHD is looking quite attractive over the Z100.
 
Barry_Green said:
So in effect, it's a single-sensor 1/3" camera. Ned says the footage is impressive, so I look forward to seeing footage. But knowing it's a 1/3" sensor certainly dampens my enthusiasm for it.
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My suspicion is that it will be capable of very impressive footage - but the downside of the chip size will be limitations on usable aperture range, low light performance and such like.

I must admit I really don't know what to think about it. Part of me has to say it's an incredible step forward, the other part of me thinks it could have been so much better. But as a reality check I suppose you have to look at the price, and given that I suspect there's enough early adopters to make it a success. And those prices are just the initial announcements, so expect them to fall quite a bit in a few months time.

I think in the future it may get looked back on less in it's own right than as to what it led to. It's certainly not the first 4k camera - but most involve a more awkward RAW workflow. Given the remarks about pricing, there's a lot of room between this and such as an F55 for inbetween models in the future, and I think they may be of far, far more interest to many people on this forum.
 
Perhaps the 18 meg sensor is not being cropped, but there is some binning to combine pixels to create a 8 meg image. my hopeful Pollyanna thought for the night.
 
philiplipetz said:
Perhaps the 18 meg sensor is not being cropped, but there is some binning to combine pixels to create a 8 meg image. my hopeful Pollyanna thought for the night.
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Nope, can't be, because the field of view delivered by the lens demands a no-larger-than-1/3" imager...
 
Barry_Green said:
Nope, can't be, because the field of view delivered by the lens demands a no-larger-than-1/3" imager...
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It does seem like the AX2000 lens is repackaged on this, but that does not mean that the AX2000 lens was limited to 1/3", it could have covered more but not been married to the right sensor. As I continue to be Pollyanna. I cannot believe that would blow their entry into this market. Each of their recent cams has seemed to be at the front of their niche - if you like Sony color.
 
philiplipetz said:
why is it not cinematic, other than the obvious ergonomics? How is the image crippled for cinema use. Need feature doc cam. what was your impression of DR?
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Because of the "effective" sensor size (ie. 1/3") you are no where near getting the same Depth of Field capable with the larger sennsor formats like micro 4/3rds, APC, super 35mm, etc... Hence no depth of field, not exactly very cinematic.

300px-Sensor_sizes_overlaid_inside_-_updated.svg.png
 
philiplipetz said:
... I cannot believe that would blow their entry into this market. Each of their recent cams has seemed to be at the front of their niche - if you like Sony color.
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Looking at the youtube link in Original resolution man it really looks good scaled down to 1080P on my monitor. If I had money to blow I would consider these new Sony cams. I do have the FS700 and can't wait to see the 4K from it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NJ01B5y0Vsk
 
philiplipetz said:
It does seem like the AX2000 lens is repackaged on this, but that does not mean that the AX2000 lens was limited to 1/3", it could have covered more but not been married to the right sensor. As I continue to be Pollyanna. I cannot believe that would blow their entry into this market. Each of their recent cams has seemed to be at the front of their niche - if you like Sony color.
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Well, I feel pretty confident there's no possible way it's using more than a 1/3" section of the chip. But why does that constitute them "blowing" it? These cameras are obviously meant to be 4K versions of their first HDV cameras, the FX1 and Z1. Look at the names of them, after all -- AX1 and Z100. The FX1 and Z1 launched the consumer HD era with 1/3" sensors, a consumer and prosumer version. So now they are launching the 4K era with a comparable 1/3" consumer and prosumer version. It all seems pretty obvious, doesn't it? It's exactly what they did before. No mystery.
 
philiplipetz said:
Perhaps the 18 meg sensor is not being cropped, but there is some binning to combine pixels to create a 8 meg image. my hopeful Pollyanna thought for the night.
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I suspect that if you're looking for a "why", a lot may be to do with it being much cheaper and quicker to market, to use technology and hardware that already exists, than fabricate all the components from new.

Hence, the lens is already in production, used in another camera - so build that in.

OK, so that's got a coverage which equates to 1/3" and so we need a 1/3" chip with 3840x2160..... I know! Let's use that 1/2.3" chip with 16 megapixels and use a sensor crop - it'll equate to a 1/3" chip of the right resolution!

And so on....

It's important to note that here at least you're getting 3840x2160 contiguous photosites in a normal Bayer pattern, which can be read normally - unlike what has to happen in DSLRs. In those cases, if they don't want to reduce the field of view, they have to drop pixels in some pattern - and the latter normally compromises quality. Here, you should be getting full expected 4k quality - at least over a small aperture range and in reasonably good light! Frankly, expect to get what you pay for!

There's nothing wrong with the "use existing tech" approach, and it's very similar to what Panasonic did to bring out the AF100. In that case, use existing parts from the GH1 and GH2 and the AVCCAM range and build it all combined into a new body. It meant it could hit the shops far earlier than if every chip etc had to be designed from scratch and helped keep the price down.

But that said, I hope Sony are working on the Mk 2 in parallel to this camera, with more parts custom designed, especially at the front end. That may be the one to wait for.......
 
Sony is smart for coming out with 4k in whatever size sensor since they clearly want to push the 4k agenda and sell some TV's and other home theatre gear.

I just bought a Sony LED TV and the store also had the 4k version on display and wondered to myself, how the heck is anyone going to watch anything in 4k on it anyway? I also ended up buying a new Sony AV receiver and it too will up-convert anything from analog SD and HDMI to 4k.. Sony has gone on a 4k frenzy.

Meanwhile at the batcave I wonder how good ol' REDRAY is doing?
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, I feel pretty confident there's no possible way it's using more than a 1/3" section of the chip. But why does that constitute them "blowing" it? These cameras are obviously meant to be 4K versions of their first HDV cameras, the FX1 and Z1. Look at the names of them, after all -- AX1 and Z100. The FX1 and Z1 launched the consumer HD era with 1/3" sensors, a consumer and prosumer version. So now they are launching the 4K era with a comparable 1/3" consumer and prosumer version. It all seems pretty obvious, doesn't it? It's exactly what they did before. No mystery.
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Sony have done this for a long time. A prosumer version and the low end of the Pro market, FX1 and Z1 for HDV including a range of Handycam versions and with AVCHD the AX2000 and the NX5U , CX960 and NX30U. Always had some clear differences usually HD/SDI, XLR mic inputs timecode etc useful to each market. This time the AX1 is a good move from the AX2000 or NX5U retaining AVCHD with full 50/60P not on either AX2000 or NX5U as well as XAVCS at HD for good 50/60Mbps encode. The PXW-Z100- could be a good B camera for a FS700 or F5 combining the shallow depth of field of the large sensor cameras with the almost everything in focus of a 1/3" sensor. My Sony NX30U and CX700 have very low noise and practically see in the dark, much better than my NX5U and have sensors that are much the same as in these 4K cameras but with clearly less pixels 6500k compared to 8300k. Just over 20% more pixels but with a much larger lens. If these 4K cameras perform close to my NX5U I will be happy. The FDR-AX1 will be a nice replacement for my NX5U and since the body is almost identical with the same batteries etc I will not notice much difference !!! I think that the cameras that will suffer the most in the Sony line will be the PMW160 and PMW100
 
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