Needed: voice recorder with very good preamps, upgrading from Zoom H4N, need advice

N

Nicholas Natteau

Veteran
I need help choosing a recorder for voice over work and interview shooting. I have a Zoom H4N right now.
But it records too much background noise and takes forever to start up.

I need a device with very good preamps. Not sure which one to choose. I've been looking at Edirol R44, Sound Devices 722, Zoom H5 and H6. But I have no idea which would be best.

This would be for voice over work, interviews (shooting with GH4 and A7s), and location sound.
I'm not a musician, so I wouldn't be using the recorder for music production.

Would appreciate any help, advice, feedback.
Thank you very much in advance.
 
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Nicholas Natteau said:
I need help choosing a recorder for voice over work. I have a Zoom H4N right now. But it records too much background noise and takes forever to start up.
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Recording too much background noise has nothing to do with noisy preamps. It has to do with signal to noise ratio. You can fight this in a number of ways. One is getting your microphones in position to maximize the sound you want, and therefore minimize background noise. Another is using a location with lower background noise to start with. Another is using a low sensitivity mic that lets you get in very close to a speaker's mouth (aka the newscaster/sportscaster technique). Etc. As they say, there are many paths to the waterfall.

Nicholas Natteau said:
I need a device with very good preamps. Not sure which one to choose. I've been looking at Edirol R44, Sound Devices 722, Zoom H5 and H6. But I have no idea which would be best.
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Of these, the SD 722 is by far the best. But it's also the most expensive.
 
Thank you very much Bruce. I've heard that that H5 has much better preamps than the H4N. So I was leaning towards that as it's not that much more, but then I also read about the H6. Apart from more XLR outputs and a color screen, would the H6 be significantly better than the H5 (even better preamps?)? Regarding microphone and location, I'm using a Neumann TLM-102 with pop filter and recording inside my walk-in closet.
 
Nicholas Natteau said:
I've heard that that H5 has much better preamps than the H4N. So I was leaning towards that as it's not that much more, but then I also read about the H6. Apart from more XLR outputs and a color screen, would the H6 be significantly better than the H5 (even better preamps?)? Regarding microphone and location, I'm using a Neumann TLM-102 with pop filter and recording inside my walk-in closet.
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Those are XLR inputs, not outputs.

Regarding "background noise": that can mean different things to different people. Are you talking about self-noise from the audio chain (i.e. hiss)? Are you talking about actual background sounds that exist in the recording space, such as air units or the reflections of the room or dogs barking in the neighborhood? Self-noise is solved, generally, with proper gain-staging of your signal chain. Ambient sound issues are solved with proper mic placement.

Any of the inexpensive, handheld recorders will have less-than-ideal pre-amps. Sound Devices will have the cleanest pre-amps of any of the options you listed. If you're wanting to stay in the lower-budget range, you don't have many options. The TASCAM DR-680 is good, and the pre-amps are well above average in the price range, but it is a multi-track recorder and is likely overkill for what you need. The HD-P2 from TASCAM is also good, with very good pre-amps, and records two tracks. More suited to what you need. The Fostex FR2-LE is also worth considering in the sub-$1k range of recorders, and its pre-amps are also remarkably good for the price range. There's always the option of adding a better, external pre-amp in front of the recorder later on if you find one of these doesn't quite cut the mustard. All things considered, though, if you can afford Sound Devices, get Sound Devices.
 
"Voice recorder with very good preamps"
Ain't gonna happen for less the $500+.
An external preamp (or mixer) can 'help' a budget recorder. Preferably a recorder that doesn't attenuate the line and send it back through the recorder's preamp anyway, but the noise floor would be a little better never the less, especially if a lot of gain is necessary. Not absolutely sure, but the Tascam DR40 line input sounds and the circuit board layout appears to be direct like the 8-track DR680 which also has better than average pres., but still not in the same league as the SD or other high-end and boutique studio mic pres
A high quality preamp and recorder w/digital out/in is a good option. (SD MixPre-D and Tascam DR100mkII for instance)
The room acoustics, isolation from extraneous noise and operator skills also make a huge difference so YMMV no matter what gear you have.
 
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I vote for the Sound Devices 702. If it is used and in good shape you should grab it. There is no other two channel recorder on the market that can come anywhere close. With things like the little hand held recorders I always put a good pre in front of them, like a sound devices mix pre. The only thing that I go right into is the Tascam DR60D, and that's mainly because it is integrated into my DSLR rig. It isn't a handheld recorder at all, but for the price it's pretty cool.
 
davefisk said:
I vote for the Sound Devices 702. If it is used and in good shape you should grab it. There is no other two channel recorder on the market that can come anywhere close. With things like the little hand held recorders I always put a good pre in front of them, like a sound devices mix pre. The only thing that I go right into is the Tascam DR60D, and that's mainly because it is integrated into my DSLR rig. It isn't a handheld recorder at all, but for the price it's pretty cool.
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I remember reading a forum post by an audio engineer comparing 702 with Doug Oade modded Tascam HD P2, he said the technical quality is on par and with different mics each of them has its own strength.
 
If it's in the OP's budget, I would go with the 702 for it's excellent sound, reliability/ruggedness and resale value.
 
My advice: get the sound devices. I bought a used 702T a while back. It is a great recorder. And I would recommend the 702 or 702T over the 722. Mainly because the only advantage of the 722 is an internal hdd. But you can use a bus powered FireWire hard drive with the 702 and get the same end result.

In general, the 702 is awesome. However if you're using a shotgun mic or other mic as one of the inputs, you have to crank the gain knob pretty far to get decent levels. And those knobs are hard to make fine adjustments to. This is why it's preferable to have a Sound Devices 302 or 442 mixer in front of the recorder, because the mixer has the smaller gain knob and also a larger fader knob for finer adjustments.

Let me be clear in saying you can get great sound with just the 702. The mixer just gives you more control..

and last but not least, if you ever sell the 702, you'll probably get most of your money back.
 
The Sound Devices is not even in the same league as the other little digital recorders. The SD is what all the others aspire to be when they grow up.

But as others have mentioned, your presenting symptom (too much background noise) could be caused by many things other than the quality of the recorder mic preamps.
I would NOT recommend buying ANY replacement recorder until you have actually done the experiments to determine exactly what is causing your SNR problems.
 
Thanks very much again everybody. Since we're discussing Sound Devices, what about the USB Pre 2 or the Mix Pre D???
I understand that the 702 might be miles better but I feel safer buying the item brand new, and at B&H it's nearly $2K. So that would be way beyond my means, as I also have to budget for other hardware.

What are your thoughts on the SD USB Pre 2 for $850 or the Mix Pre D for $900???

And finally I hear a lot of people talking about using Warm Audio's "WA12" with the TLM102. I didn't think the TLM102 needed to be a warmer in sound tone, so would that be overkill???
 
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My thoughts are: You are asking the wrong questions.
You came here apparently wanting to improve the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) of your dialog recordings.
But then you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the problem was the quality of the recorder mic preamps.
But absent any supporting evidence, I do NOT agree that using better mic preamps will magicaly resolve your problem.
Now it is POSSIBLE that the weak link in the chain IS the mic preamps, but I certainly would not spend $100s or $1000s on a whim.
Perhaps you have more disposable budget than I do, but that just doesn't seem logical to me.

And "botique" mic preamps are best left in the studio, IMHO. Preamp "warmth" is not even on the top-10 list of priorities for production sound.
When you are out in the field recording live dialog spend you money on good microphones and ways to get them into the right place (i.e. boom pole + operator)
 
All of the SD preamps sound very good.
I don't know about Warm Audio's "WA12". It's not a battery powered portable and does not have a HP amp if those features are/are not needed.
Regarding the TLM102 and other mics, depends on your voice/preferences. It won't make up for lack of skills, talent or 'voice', same with the preamp choice.
 
Nicholas Natteau said:
What are your thoughts on the SD USB Pre 2 for $850 or the Mix Pre D for $900?
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The MixPre-D can be used in the field, where the USB Pre-2 would be more difficult to use on batteries.

I would opt for MixPre-D or the older MixPre model used if you can find one. ( the non-digital MixPre mixer can be found used around the $500 mark )

Then add on a good low cost field recorder ( i.e. Tascam DR-40, Tascam DR-100 Mkii, Sony PCM-M10 ) and you are set to go.
 
In my previous post, I forgot to mention that I upgraded from the Zoom H4n to the Zoom H5. I understand that it has better preamps than the H4N and better signal to noise ratio. And from what I can hear after comparing the two, I think it does.

But I'm definitely not planning on buying anything on a whim, as that would be foolhardy. I'm trying to inform myself as wisely as I can, which is why I very much appreciate all this feedback as it really helps. For the voice over in question, I have someone very talented in mind so no worries there either. By starting this post, I was just trying to make sure that I have the right gear and not leaving anything out.

Again thank you all for the suggestions and advice, it's very much appreciated.
 
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Nicholas Natteau said:
Thanks very much again everybody. Since we're discussing Sound Devices, what about the USB Pre 2 or the Mix Pre D???
I understand that the 702 might be miles better but I feel safer buying the item brand new, and at B&H it's nearly $2K. So that would be way beyond my means, as I also have to budget for other hardware.

What are your thoughts on the SD USB Pre 2 for $850 or the Mix Pre D for $900???

And finally I hear a lot of people talking about using Warm Audio's "WA12" with the TLM102. I didn't think the TLM102 needed to be a warmer in sound tone, so would that be overkill???
Click to expand...

I can understand wanting to buy New, however when it comes to Sound Devices, it's one of the best brands you can buy used and still know you're getting a great product. Regardless, if you want to buy new and don't want to fork out the money for the 702, I would recommend getting the Mix Pre D, then hooking it up to one of the lower end recorders (Zoom H4N, Tascam, Roland, Marantz, whatever). The trick is to run the Mix-Pre D's XLR outputs at Line Level, and also run the recorders XLR inputs at Line Level. Then what you're doing is bypassing the preamps on the recorder, and instead using the preamps on the mixer (which are much better qaulity).

Here's a video of a guy using a Sound Devices 302 mixer and a Zoom H4N recorder for nice results. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRNd9DT0_is

And as others have said: you definitely need to try other links in the chain to eliminate the problems you were having.
 
Actually if possible with the MixPre-D go digital to the recorder. Not all handheld recorders bypass the mic pre when going in Line, some just pad down the line in. Going digital bypasses all of it.

This thread has gotten fairly confusing though since the OP seems to be talking about recorders and mixers as if they are the same thing. Since he already bought a new recorder I'm assuming he is looking for a mixer but? He has mostly talked about portable gear but then tossed in a piece of studio that practically speaking can't be used in the field (requires 24V AC).

I'm with the others in saying I don't think any of this is going to "fix" the problem you want to fix by buying this stuff.
 
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