CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Fans?!! eeks. I wonder if the 4K doesn't have since it doesn't record internally?
Need recommendations for multiple camera car mount
- Thread starter CharlesPapert
- Start date
Fans?!! eeks. I wonder if the 4K doesn't have since it doesn't record internally?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I dont like small sonies for me - ultimately because I want a tiny cinema camera.
Black magic.. (HD micro)
three 1/4 mounts
10bit Prores, raw
composite out (operator)
big hdmi out (focus puller)
12v supply in
timecode in
That is a pretty 'pro' spec. Basically I want to be hired as a day player on alexa shows to provide fridge cam, under car cam whatever. And proRes/timecode/12volt basically fit the cameras in a 'cine' environment.
BMC micro downers. Harsh rolloff (compared to FS7)
Horrid buttons.
No screen.
No SDI.
But that doesnt make the Sonys bad.
I dislike about sonys
-Odd batteries.. now I found they (might) run through USB power that game changed a bit
-skinny HDMI
-4-2-0 codecs
-single 1/4in mount unless you buy a cage which is doubtless three months back ordered.
-baffling menues - seriously we used a RX100 (??) last week and had to sit down for 20mins to find iris adjustment! ! No JOKE
-Complex combinations of crops vs framerates verses amounts of jello - which varies from crop to crop
-Millions of different models each with strengths and weaknesses.
-width of cameras + hdmi lead on gimbal
-Not actually that cheap
That doesn't mean that one cannot crack these challenges. BUt you need to learn the sony lexicon, workarounds and probably shoot baked not log.
Back to the BMC..
Plug it in to your 12v system, select frame rate, colour kelvin, ISO, shutter angle, roll. Hand off proRes. Simples.
Back to the sony.
Hmm a moving shot? well I might be better going to a speed booster and crop mode to combat jello, oh 120FPS is not available in full frame, and because its a contrasty day maybe use HG 7 or should I use HG6 with Knee Off? And how do I adjust that iris again?
I had a lot of fun with my NEX5n back in the day and still use it on occasion with the 16mm pancake lens I told you not to write off. I clearly see the appeal of a a7s and cheapo nikkor 24 as a narrow DOF low light monster.
Here is a recent car shot with the MB_Micro. It fulfills some of my dreams in a way.. but I have a sneaking feeling you want a different feel for your show..
Incedentally I uploaded it at 4k - maybe do a side to side on some upresses!
https://vimeo.com/215436393
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I think to me PERSONALLY.. 10bit log is the basic spec for a 'quality image' at 100mbs for HD or 400MBS for 4k
That is hit by..
BMC
GH5 with 400mbs firmware (is it out?)
GH4/Yagh and 7q via quad SDI?
Canon XC10/15
The costly red cube thing that is very pro and expensive forgotten name.
On that basis I would consider the above cameras.
Examples of an interesting read..
XC10 .. meets..uhd 1 https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s17.pdf
A6300.. not sutable for general broadcast.. https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s19.pdf
That is hit by..
BMC
GH5 with 400mbs firmware (is it out?)
GH4/Yagh and 7q via quad SDI?
Canon XC10/15
The costly red cube thing that is very pro and expensive forgotten name.
On that basis I would consider the above cameras.
Examples of an interesting read..
XC10 .. meets..uhd 1 https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s17.pdf
A6300.. not sutable for general broadcast.. https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s19.pdf
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
red cubes.. http://www.ioindustries.com/cameras.html
I'm curious about the BM studio cam, Charles - please report back how you find it... I haven't seen much feedback either on it. FWIW - I've used my 6300 (which is mostly my gimbal cam ) with the Rok 12mm T2.2 Cine lens (my only e mount lens) for one dash cam type set up and found it plenty wide (possibly too wide if you're doing multiple cams). Coupled with the PIX E5 recorder, this combo works quite well for me in many different situations.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Thanks for all of that info, Sam.
We have a 4K mandate as I think I mentioned so the standard BM Micro won't do it for us. Whether we go with that or the A7's, we'll record out to Shoguns or Ninjas in ProRes, which will also give us the opportunity to monitor image and make sure all cameras are working properly. And all will be powered from a block battery in back seat so no concerns about internal batteries. I normally use a d-tap adaptor with my A7S, and have powered my RX100iv from the USB--can't speak to the models inbetween, but I suspect they all can be externally powered one way or another. On a shoot like this, where the cameras are hard to access, I don't mess around with power or media if I can help it, it's much more efficient to externalize everything.
It's interesting how many people have referred to jello issues. The cameras are fixed to the car driving down the street, there should be a very miminal amount of vibration and no movement to speak of (I'm not particularly concerned with poles moving by in the background). Really we are just trying to emulate the feel of GoPro's but with better dynamic range, so a certain amount of small-cam-itis is not a problem here.
I've just learned that the car is being free driven, which is a pain because that shuts out some of the control I was going to have--was planning on putting remote iris on all cameras, now it will have to go into an auto mode to accommodate going into shadow etc. Another aspect to test.
We have a 4K mandate as I think I mentioned so the standard BM Micro won't do it for us. Whether we go with that or the A7's, we'll record out to Shoguns or Ninjas in ProRes, which will also give us the opportunity to monitor image and make sure all cameras are working properly. And all will be powered from a block battery in back seat so no concerns about internal batteries. I normally use a d-tap adaptor with my A7S, and have powered my RX100iv from the USB--can't speak to the models inbetween, but I suspect they all can be externally powered one way or another. On a shoot like this, where the cameras are hard to access, I don't mess around with power or media if I can help it, it's much more efficient to externalize everything.
It's interesting how many people have referred to jello issues. The cameras are fixed to the car driving down the street, there should be a very miminal amount of vibration and no movement to speak of (I'm not particularly concerned with poles moving by in the background). Really we are just trying to emulate the feel of GoPro's but with better dynamic range, so a certain amount of small-cam-itis is not a problem here.
I've just learned that the car is being free driven, which is a pain because that shuts out some of the control I was going to have--was planning on putting remote iris on all cameras, now it will have to go into an auto mode to accommodate going into shadow etc. Another aspect to test.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
and just to flesh this out further--I'll be aggregating the three Atomos outputs into a Decimator quad and then out to a Teradek 2000 on the roof, which will transmit to a large monitor mounted in a passenger van that will travel in front of the car. That's a' fun.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
For various reasons I think Sonys might work for your project.
-mini hdmi will break after 10 builds but you are only doing one build
-your client cares about one element of printed spec not image fidelity
-you are in a position to custom cable the power
-you are happy to shoot off board
Additionally I feel your client may demand high ISO and "auto". I smell a client that has been watching "car share" without realising that the vehicle is both towed and completely ripped apart for the shoot.
-mini hdmi will break after 10 builds but you are only doing one build
-your client cares about one element of printed spec not image fidelity
-you are in a position to custom cable the power
-you are happy to shoot off board
Additionally I feel your client may demand high ISO and "auto". I smell a client that has been watching "car share" without realising that the vehicle is both towed and completely ripped apart for the shoot.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The gh5 offers auto and stuff - Id certainly test that
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Sounds good. I do like the 10 bit out. Wondering if I'll need to go speedbooster to get a two shot from the center position...
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Personally (and Im suspicious!) I would not trust a speed booster to do electronical stuff well
There is a lumix 7-14 zoom (if you need full auto) and I think a better one announced? Otherwise i would check the samyang offerings - there are some (small and light) fisheyes that will recreate the gopro look?
new zoom
http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/04/...o-elmarit-8-18mm-f2-8-4-0-asph-zoom-micro-43/
Oly zoom
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1031586-REG/olympus_7_14mm_f2_8_pro_m.html
Cheap light fish
http://www.samyang-lens.co.uk/samyang-75mm-f35-umc-fisheye-mft.html
What I use on my GH4..
http://www.slrmagic.co.uk/slr-magic-10mm-t21-hyperprime-cine-lens.html
consider which of these works with a screw on ND
There is a lumix 7-14 zoom (if you need full auto) and I think a better one announced? Otherwise i would check the samyang offerings - there are some (small and light) fisheyes that will recreate the gopro look?
new zoom
http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/04/...o-elmarit-8-18mm-f2-8-4-0-asph-zoom-micro-43/
Oly zoom
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1031586-REG/olympus_7_14mm_f2_8_pro_m.html
Cheap light fish
http://www.samyang-lens.co.uk/samyang-75mm-f35-umc-fisheye-mft.html
What I use on my GH4..
http://www.slrmagic.co.uk/slr-magic-10mm-t21-hyperprime-cine-lens.html
consider which of these works with a screw on ND
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There's a Samyang (et. al) 7.5 in m43 mount and a Meike 6.5 in m43 mount if you go GH 4/5, I haven't used them, but know they exist. A speed boosted 14mm or 12mm might do the job too.
Have you thought about how much ND you are going to use on the side/rear windows so they aren't blown out? Might change the way you need to rig the cameras, suction cups might not do so well sticking to the gels.
The jello is sometimes worse for the objects in the car than the objects outside the car, but depends on so many factors it isn't even funny. I would think the biggest issue will come from a loud exhaust, if you have any classic performance cars in this show.
I know you have a 4K edict, but I would probably hide a few of these in the car for safety http://www.spytecinc.com/mobius-mini-action-camera.html cheaper than dirt, and small enough that you won't even know they are there. 8Bit 4:2:0 but they have a decently high bit rate and may just save a shot or two. I have one, and it's not bad at all. Fairly jello proof, but I haven't put it on my paint shaker motorcycle to really give it a test (yet). I'd put them up, wire a 5 volt USB power to them, and set them to record when power is applied, then flip a switch just before the recording starts. These may still be the thing that I use on my racing motorcycle if the DVR doesn't work out. Might work for a quick two shot if that shot isn't up for long so you don't notice the upsampling.
Have you thought about how much ND you are going to use on the side/rear windows so they aren't blown out? Might change the way you need to rig the cameras, suction cups might not do so well sticking to the gels.
The jello is sometimes worse for the objects in the car than the objects outside the car, but depends on so many factors it isn't even funny. I would think the biggest issue will come from a loud exhaust, if you have any classic performance cars in this show.
I know you have a 4K edict, but I would probably hide a few of these in the car for safety http://www.spytecinc.com/mobius-mini-action-camera.html cheaper than dirt, and small enough that you won't even know they are there. 8Bit 4:2:0 but they have a decently high bit rate and may just save a shot or two. I have one, and it's not bad at all. Fairly jello proof, but I haven't put it on my paint shaker motorcycle to really give it a test (yet). I'd put them up, wire a 5 volt USB power to them, and set them to record when power is applied, then flip a switch just before the recording starts. These may still be the thing that I use on my racing motorcycle if the DVR doesn't work out. Might work for a quick two shot if that shot isn't up for long so you don't notice the upsampling.