Need help buying a lavalier mic

V

VHS Tapeworm

New member
Hello. I am seeking assistance from anyone with some knowledge on the subject. I recently purchased the Azden 310LT UHF On-Camera Body-Pack Microphone System, and while the range is great, the lav mic that was included does not meet my needs. I need a lav mic that can go under clothes, and stand up a little bit to clothing rustle. The mic the unit comes with is way too sensitive for that, on top of the severe clothing rustle problems it has, the audio itself is of poor quality. I tried all the tricks that would work with my shooting situation to avoid clothing rustle with this mic, mole skin, gaffer tape triangles, nothing helped. And with the general audio quality being so crappy to begin with I decided it wasn't really worth anymore effort. So, I would like to buy a new lav mic, but I want to make sure it is actually compatible with the Azden I have. I'm new to all of this, and am finding it difficult to obtain the information needed. There are no stores in my area that sell this stuff, so I have to order it online, and don't want to have to return something that I opened and used because it doesn't work with my transmitter/receiver system. Any help would be much appreciated. My price range is $100-$300, I would prefer to save some money, but I am open to all suggestions. I need the mic for "man on the street" bits, so it is imperative that it can be hidden under clothes and still be able to pick up voices somewhat close to the subject wearing it, without the audio constantly being obscured by clothing rustle. Thank you.
 
I have the Countryman B3 and like it, though it is rarely used. Other popular lavs are the Tram and the DPA (pricey). The Sanken COS-11 has been around a while and they make excellent producs, but might be too spendy for you though cheaper than the DPA.

Trew audio has good prices and the expertise to guide you correctly. http://www.trewaudio.com/store/Lavalier.html

This comparison is many years old now but was very helpful to me when I faced this decision years ago. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/lavs_brockett.html

Best of luck!
 
Hi, VHS Tapeworm, and welcome to DVXUser!

A lot of your basic questions about lav mics and burying them in clothing can be answered by perusing the "Audio 101" sticky, seen in yellow at the top of the sound forum.
 
I looked up some of the reviews on this system because my initial reaction is that Azden is generally very poor quality and tossing more $$$ at it is probably a waste.

BUT the reviews are pretty positive. Most of the negative are obviously by folks who had no idea of what they were doing and thought that they could stick a lav on someone and get a close up VO type sound in the middle of crowded noisy spaces.

The mic does seem to be "bright" by pretty much all accounts. Some love that and some hate it. So you may be able to make a bump in usability with a replacement mic.
First though If you can return it you may want to just go for a better system. Your $300 budget for a replacement mic and the $400 price of the system puts you in a range where you have some decent options.

Assuming you can't return the unit I would look at Oscar Sound Tech's lav choices.

They are in the low part of your price range, excellent quality and you can have them wire it to your needs.

A new mic though will probably only be an incremental improvement since a lot of your problems sound like placement and rigging issues. Admittedly from what I gather the included mic will aggravate those so...

My point is that I would probably replace the mic in your shoes but also realize that a lot of my issues were at least partially the fault of not knowing enough about how to place and protect a lav.

There is a eBook someone mentioned the other day "Down to the Wire" that looks like a good class in how to place a mic. It covers more than just lav's but has a lot of content on lav placement and rigging. That book (it's more of a bunch of tutorial videos connected in an app than what I would think of as a "book") at $29 is likely to make a bigger improvement in your results that a new mic.
 
I don't think the mic itself is causing clothing noise. Hiding mics is another skill-set all together. (back art) Takes years of experience.. even then there's always occasional problems. There a lot of additional accessories and mounts to buy like vampire clips, so factor that in. Some pricey, some cheap, like Transpore surgical tape.
As Scott stated the OST mics are highly regarded and 'affordable'. In any case, two mics would be wanted; round end-address (B3/6, TL40, cos11, ect.), and flat side-address. (EMW, TR50, 801/02, VT500, ect)
 
Thanks everyone for your input. I will be going over the links provided and doing research. For people asking about the mic, the lav mic it came with is a $28 mic, that I did test before even trying to do anything remotely elaborate with, and I immediately noticed the poor sound quality. I understand that hiding a lav can be very tricky, but this thing picked up every little fabric sound possible, and again, it sounded bad even when I wasn't attempting to hide it. The thing is way too sensitive, which makes a difficult task like hiding it even more of a burden.

The other concern I have is compatibility. And yes, my ignorance will be very apparent here. How can I tell if a lav mic will actually work with the Azden I have? There are some good recommendations in this thread already, but I do not know how to tell if they will work with my Azden 310LT. It also confuses me because a lot of sites seem to word the specification pages differently. Argh.

Also, are there any brands that are particularly good at standing up to clothing rustle? That would easily help me narrow my search down. My desired price is $100-$180, I will go up to $300 if I have to, and I know everyone says "you get what you pay for", but I refuse to believe that there are no decent options for $180 or less that can satisfy my needs. Maybe my desire to save money is just clouding my senses. I'm convinced anything that I get will sound better than the lav mic that was included with the system, so I am mostly interested in finding something that is best suited for being hidden under clothing.

Sorry I didn't address everyone specifically, but I have to get back to work, and I wanted to get this up here as quickly as I could.
 
I'll second the OST. Super bang for the buck. Contact them with your wireless model and they should be able to tell you if their mics will work or not. For an extra hundred bucks you can get an XLR converter for wired use, too.

The general consensus from the audio pros around here is the Sennheiser G3 is as low as you want to go with wireless. I read a ton of reviews of cheaper systems and found the same thing - bunch of people with little experience trying to figure this stuff out. I decided to spend the extra bucks for the G3 system. Glad I did. For shoots without an audio guy, it's great to have and every run & gun I've done with local media present - that's what they're using. (CNN's guys are another story... lectros all around).

Not to say Azden, Samson, etc. can't be made to work reliably, but I'm not an audio guy. I went with the advice of dozens of guys with dozens of years under their belts.
 
With the advice I got here I wrote OST and got a quick reply. They stated that they don't do termination for Azden transmitters and that I should purchase through their distributor Professional Sound Services and they will wire it up for me. This sounds like it will add to the cost.

Sadly, I feel like I made a bad purchase overall and am now considering returning it and getting the Sennheiser ew 112-p G3. It looks like there are a couple variations of this model, but this one inparticular has a mic included that looks like this.
27124_l.jpg
It seems that this type of mic would be better suited to go underneath clothing. The Sennheiser ew 112-p G3 is also one of the cheaper variatons. The Sennheiser ew 100 ENG G3 is about $170 more, and that model seems to have dfferent combo variations as well. Is there much difference between the two or are they both roughly the same quaily?
Does this seems like a better purchase for me? Does anyone know of the signal range? One of the main reasons I got the Azden, besides the cheaper price tag, was for the long range it offered. It was capable of going through walls and didn't really drop the signal at long ranges. Would the Sennheiser ew 112-p G3 compare on that front? Hopefully, it is so much better in every way that it is even stupid to ask. Thanks again for helping me through this stressful purchasing dilemma.
 
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VHS Tapeworm said:
...but this thing picked up every little fabric sound possible, and again, it sounded bad even when I wasn't attempting to hide it. The thing is way too sensitive, which makes a difficult task like hiding it even more of a burden.
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Did you have a proper strain relief loop taped down below the capsule? I'm willing to be that much of what you were hearing, without actually hearing a sample for myself, was noise traveling up the mic's cable. It doesn't matter how much money you put into a lav; without the loop to decouple noise in the cable, the mic will be susceptible to noise no matter how secured the capsule is.

VHS Tapeworm said:
The other concern I have is compatibility. And yes, my ignorance will be very apparent here. How can I tell if a lav mic will actually work with the Azden I have? There are some good recommendations in this thread already, but I do not know how to tell if they will work with my Azden 310LT. It also confuses me because a lot of sites seem to word the specification pages differently. Argh.
Click to expand...

I'd say most any lav you find can be terminated for Azden, Audio-Technical, Sennheiser, Lectro, etc. Either the manufacturer or an authorized dealer/service center will be able to do that. You need only to contact them and ask if they can do it.

VHS Tapeworm said:
Also, are there any brands that are particularly good at standing up to clothing rustle? That would easily help me narrow my search down. My desired price is $100-$180, I will go up to $300 if I have to, and I know everyone says "you get what you pay for", but I refuse to believe that there are no decent options for $180 or less that can satisfy my needs. Maybe my desire to save money is just clouding my senses.

I'm convinced anything that I get will sound better than the lav mic that was included with the system, so I am mostly interested in finding something that is best suited for being hidden under clothing.
Click to expand...

You've gotten some great suggestions already. Tram TR-50, Countryman B3 or B6, OST (their version of the TR-50), DPA, Sanken. Even the Countryman EMW, which is less expensive, could be buried succesfully with a little effort.

VHS Tapeworm said:
With the advice I got here I wrote OST and got a quick reply. They stated that they don't do termination for Azden transmitters and that I should purchase through their distributor Professional Sound Services and they will wire it up for me. This sounds like it will add to the cost.
Click to expand...

Minimally, but you are paying for the connector and the labor to have it attached if you need a customized (read: not normally stocked) connector.

VHS Tapeworm said:
Sadly, I feel like I made a bad purchase overall and am now considering returning it and getting the Sennheiser ew 112-p G3. It looks like there are a couple variations of this model, but this one inparticular has a mic included that looks like this.

It seems that this type of mic would be better suited to go underneath clothing. The Sennheiser ew 112-p G3 is also one of the cheaper variatons. The Sennheiser ew 100 ENG G3 is about $170 more, and that model seems to have dfferent combo variations as well. Is there much difference between the two or are they both roughly the same quaily
Click to expand...

You can't go wrong with the G3. It's the best offering in the price range. The stock mics that come with it are either cardioid or omnidirectional. Get the omni. As for its usefulness being buried, that's more a matter of proper rigging with tapes and adhesives, and the relief loop. The capsule isn't quite as small as some of the others, but it can be done.

VHS Tapeworm said:
Does this seems like a better purchase for me? Does anyone know of the signal range? One of the main reasons I got the Azden, besides the cheaper price tag, was for the long range it offered. It was capable of going through walls and didn't really drop the signal at long ranges. Would the Sennheiser ew 112-p G3 compare on that front? Hopefully, it is so much better in every way that it is even stupid to ask. Thanks again for helping me through this stressful purchasing dilemma.
Click to expand...

Never trust the reception range on manufacturer's spec. Any time you add obstacles between the transmitter and the receiver, you risk dropouts. You cannot break the laws of physics.

I have never had signal issues with my G3 units, assuming I'm using a clear channel. And that's the trick: finding a channel that doesn't have other RF clutter in the area.
 
A friend has a G2 (I think, whatever the version before the current one is) and we did a test at the Saul Zaentz film center. She recorded in her office and I walked around the building. We got a few hits when I was on the far side of the building with maybe six offices between me and the receiver, but the rest was clear. I was at max about 150 feet away with multiple offices between the transmitter and receiver. These are modern offices so not very thick walls but still not bad. At home I ran a similar test with a Lectro 100 series and had no hits at well over 100 feet through brick walls and three floors down.

Those are "fun" tests but I'm not doing surveillance and for filming you should always be line of sight. So providing you are not in RF hell you should be OK.

I don't believe the OST mics come with a connector. The price list I have lists an extra charge for a connector so not sure it would cost much if any more to have the mic wired for Azden.
 
Regarding the G3 - Alex (who knows far more about location audio than I ever will) mentioned it being very capable if you can find a clear channel.

I'll throw in that the G3 makes it very simple to find a clear channel. You scan with the transmitter, it gives a list of channels, you pick one and synch it to the receiver. Takes about 60 seconds.

If you show zero clear channles, chances are you're too close to a mass of electronics - I can't get one next to my editing station, but everywhere else - even a regular outdoor gig that is the highest point in Dallas with dozens of radio towers surrounding me - I get plenty to choose from. (A location that cheaper wireless systems can't hack, by the way).

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I'd read a million posts here, tried to find reviews and info to talk myself into saving one or two hundred bucks on a system vs. the $600-ish G3... and finally bit the bullet. The chances of ruining a project and the client issues that could bring just weren't worth it.

And don't sweat the expense of buying a connector (twenty bucks?) and having OST wire it for you (fifteen bucks or less). For the quailty you end up with you could easily drop twice the money. The omni that ships with the G3 isn't awful, but it gets pretty dull when hidden under fabric. Grab the G3 and when you recover from the purchase, talk to OST.
 
Again.. I concur with Alex. The G3 is arguably the most highly regarded (low cost) wireless system. The bungled ME2 (omni mic) is.. usable but most pro users replace it and keep the ME2 for a back-up.

OST mics do NOT come terminated. Most connectors can be attached for another $15 usd, when purchased directly from OST. They do not come with clips or windscreens either, they do have packages available: clip, windscreen, case. So those items should be factored in the cost. For another $100., an XLR /Phantom Power adapter is available for a hard-wired configuration. AFAIK, PSS prices are not that much higher than buying direct.

Not sure what you mean by the term 'combo'; According to Sennheiser the 'Combo' system has two transmitters (body-pack and butt-plug.. and no, you cannot use both at the same time with just one receiver). There would be no difference in quality.
Below is the Sennheiser 100 series system configurations.
EM100 Base station receiver
w 112 Theater, presentation SK Bodypack (omni-directional ME 2)
w 122 Theater, presentation SK Bodypack (high feedback rejection ME 4)
w 152 Sports (aerobic), vocals SK Bodypack (ME 3 headset)
w 172 music instrument SK Bodypack
w 135 Speech, vocals (SKM H/H MD 835 mic element)
w 145 Vocals (high feedback rejection) (SKM H/H mic body/x-mitter w/ME 865 element)
w 165 Vocals, presentation (high feedback rejection) (SKM H/H mic body/x-mitter w/ME 835 element)
----------------------------------------------
EK 100 portable receiver:
w 100-ENG Combo system, SK Bodypack & SKP plug-on xmitters (omni-directional ME 2 lav)
w 112-p ENG /Presentation, camera-mounted applications SK Bodypack ( ME 2 lav)
w 122-p Noisy environments, camera-mounted applications SK Bodypack (ME4 lav)
w 135-p Speech, vocals, camera-mounted (SKM H/H mic body/ x-mitter w/ ME 865 element)
----------------------------------------------

FWIW, VHF systems get better reception through walls and such.
I have an old rarely used 185 system that works great in that respect. It's always best to keep trans>receiver line-of-sight no matter what.
 
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