FS7: Need advice on new camera

R

rodwell66

New member
Hi all,

Not sure this should go in this thread, but we are looking for a new (or could be used) camera and I was researching the FS7 so maybe it fits here.

We need to take our "capability" to the next level. We may have landed a new client for the production of a TV spot, and they have to look "awesome". Think network quality broadcast TV commercials, or at least close.

Currently (don't laugh) we use an EX-3 with a Letus Ultimate and Relay lense, with some Zeiss primes. This gets us a nice bokeh and so far, an image quality that has sufficed for our needs. But I'm worried that on this project it may not cut it. We aren't in an area where renting a camera is very easy, although I suppose we could pay shipping to go that route.

So, what should we be considering? I'm considering all options: C100, C300, C500, Sony F3, F5, F55, F35, FS7, Arri Amira

Have I missed any? (before you reply, see budget discussion below)

Also, gonna need some good glass, either a few primes or a prime or two and a good zoom.

I know most of the issues as far as codec, grading, etc. Just looking for advice on what camera is going to give me that "oh wow, that is a killer image" feeling, and what is it going to cost to get me there. Regarding budget, we probably are talking about a $30-$40k limit, would love to spend less, would have to be really "convinced" to spend more). I would not be opposed to going the used/eBay route if need be. And we would need to acquire the gear ASAP, can't wait for "nearly" released cameras (updated C100 looks goood, but not shipping yet).

Thanks for any and all advice!

Rod W.
 
If you own EOS lenses, maybe you want to go with Canon. It would make sense.

If you are not lens picky, maybe the FS7 because you are really getting a ton of functionality with the Sony that Canon's camera costing 3x as much doesn't deliver. Period.

Sure the FS7 has some weird bugs and proprietary lens mount, but they are not the end of the world and in the right hands the image will look as good as an image from an F55.

AMIRA? It's damn expensive, but the image is awesome.

BMD, the "others", etc.. I don't have great thoughts about them.
 
rodwell66 said:
I would not be opposed to going the used/eBay route if need be.
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Speaking on a purely purchasing/buying perspective, buying used is not a bad way to go, now. Especially if you can verify that the camera was taken care of. It's not like in the tape days when a body had 1000's of hours on it, you knew costly maintenance and service was needed or just around the corner. I've always bought my cameras new, until just a few weeks ago. I was able to pick up a used F55 with the OLED VF that had just been serviced/inspected by Sony(part of an agreement/contract with the original owner) and with the extended warranty still in effect for less than 70% of the cost of a new body alone. And a friend of mine got a very similar deal about a month earlier. He paid a few $K more, but he also got a lot of accessories in that package(batts, cards, lens adapters, etc.).

There are good deals on good cameras out there to be had. And really, pretty much all of the cameras out there now are capable of producing good images(not trying say that an Alexa and a C100 are equal, but you get my point). Within reason, it's more in the hands of the people behind the camera than the camera itself.
 
We don't have any EOS lenses, so maybe the Canon is a mute point. I've worked with some footage shot on the C300, thought it looked really good, but not sure what lens or lenses were used on that footage.

I think the Amira's cost might take it out of contention, when everything we need to make it a working kit is factored in. Don't really know what that figure is though, so I don't know for sure. Would love to know what the Advanced version with a decent lens, viewfinder, couple batteries, etc. would cost.

Would also be curious to know what the "bugs" are with the FS7. Are they things that will eventually be fixed with firmware updates? I've read a few reviews and user accounts of the FS7. We know our way around cameras and with all the resources on the web I'm not too worried, although I realize there are some "issues". Maybe the plan would be to get an FS7 and a kick-butt lens or lenses, maybe a Gratical, maybe a couple of other accessories that make it "shine" instead of putting that money into the Amira.

I'm also intrigued by prospect of a used F55, if a "kit" could be found that was in good shape and reasonably priced. How would this image stack up against the FS7 or Amira? Again, I want to figure good glass on any of these options.

One thing I didn't mention is Red. Are any of their models something I should be considering?
 
I'd say there is one simple spec - bit depth

8 bit is rubbish
10 bit and you are a player
12 and you are cranking

bm gets you in the depth club on the cheap but the fs7 has all the practicality too

a camera like the coin has 444 but a limited Dr so with loads of lights it will out do the fs7 but with less light control the fs7 eats it

unless you shoot really formal controlled lit work the fs7 is the leader - the next contender would be the c300ii

the c300 might even beat the red and alexa on all but frame rate.
 
Coming at it a bit more leftfield.... With the budget you are talking about I think you'd be better off sinking more of it into lights and glass than anything much more than an FS7/F55.

Both those cameras have great sensors and can produce amazing images. Everything else is down to what you stixk in front of it and how you light it.



F55 plus some nice plasma and HMI fixtures + Schneider Xenon FF set and you're future proofed for bigger sensors down the line too and have some change :)
 
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Agree it is completely critical to consider your 'package'.

I shot with FS100 for years.. on a $2k tripod head, on a $5k steadicam, with $2k of monitors and probably $5k of lights, $4k of sound gear, $3k of batteries, $20k of glass, $1k of cabling et al.

I would completely have that Canon 17-135 before I had an Amera.

S
 
It's great time to get a used and lightly used F5/55 because they are coming off leases now and some people want to recoup their last 24 months of payments and aren't even that greedy about it so for you it means a great deal.

The F5/55 will likely get more firmware development and for a longer period than the FS7 - who's internal processing seems limited.

The FS7/F5/F55 all very close in image quality (more or less) so you should think of the other aspects like ergo, features, resale, etc..

Good luck whatever you decide.
 
I also came from the EX3 and it was a very easy transition to the FS7 with the kit lens. I think you'd be very pleased after dealing with the Letus and such.
 
Looking at eBay - used (a year old, according to the seller) C500 + Ki Pro Quad + cards for ~ $10,000 asking.
 
Renting is just not an option. I don't think of this as camera worries but a great chance to upgrade our capabilities!

Thanks to everyone for all the input!

I'm leaning towards the FS7. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck and allows for some room to buy accessories.

I'd like to go for F55, if I could swing it budget-wise.

Any opinions on glass for those cameras? Sony has a "deal" on their CineAlta 4K lenses, six of them for $12,900, or I might go with 3 Schneiders for about the same price.

The C300 could still be a candidate, especially due to the "fire sale" pricing on it now. Would love to wait for the next version, but from what I read the changes are somewhat minor anyway. There are many more glass options if we went that route.

I think Ursa could be a candidate, too. I know its a bit more light hungry but on this job and most jobs we'll be lighting everything anyway. But low light capability is always great and can create options for some scenes that otherwise might not be possible.

As far as bit depth, recording codec(s) and color space, should we lean towards any of the above?

And a couple final questions: I know the "competition" has thrown out the fact that they would shoot this job on a Red camera. Not even sure which model. But, a) is there any way I should I consider one of the Reds given a 30k or so budget? b) are any of the above models widely regarded as "on par" with any of the Reds?

The search continues....

Thanks everyone!

Rod W.
 
C500 might be an option, also. I had forgotten about that one and it is appealing at the current used prices, for sure.

Thanks DLD!

Rod W.
 
I have a slew of Canon primes and zooms, a few Zeiss primes, a few Sony Emount, and a Red Pro 17-50 f/2.8. I spent a long time looking for suitable 4K lenses to use with my F5. After finding the Red Pro Zoom, my search was over. While this lens has some mechanical issues, like the range scale not being 100% accurate, it's performance has superceded every one of my other lenses. This lens is PL mount, so, it is a native mount on my F5(with a Sony adapter anyway). Combined with a sensor crop of 2x, I get an effective 24-100 zoom. Can't recommend this lens enough. and you'll find them on eBay for very low prices.
 
cuervo said:
I have a slew of Canon primes and zooms, a few Zeiss primes, a few Sony Emount, and a Red Pro 17-50 f/2.8. I spent a long time looking for suitable 4K lenses to use with my F5. After finding the Red Pro Zoom, my search was over. While this lens has some mechanical issues, like the range scale not being 100% accurate, it's performance has superceded every one of my other lenses. This lens is PL mount, so, it is a native mount on my F5(with a Sony adapter anyway). Combined with a sensor crop of 2x, I get an effective 24-100 zoom. Can't recommend this lens enough. and you'll find them on eBay for very low prices.
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Are you using the 17-50 on the fs7? and if so do you feel it needs support or is the mount sturdy enough?
 
No, sorry for the confusion. I use it on an F5. There are emount to PL adapters, tho. I would certainly use a support, as the emount is notoriously inadequate.
 
rodwell66 said:
C500 might be an option, also. I had forgotten about that one and it is appealing at the current used prices, for sure.

Thanks DLD!

Rod W.
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I just searched for a few minutes on eBay. There was also a used F5 - EVF included - for around $16,000.

You might try calling around some major rental houses in LA and NYC and see what they have in their used department.

As to, C500 with the Odyssey Q7 (7+?) is $18,000 brand new. Ki Pro Quad doesn't have a monitor but some folks do prefer the Canon look ... plus, oh, all those lenses.

Here's a recent Shane Hurlbut comparison with Red Dragon (and, no, I am not a part of Shane's inner circle .. though, I hear it's quite a rowdy one)

 
rodwell66 said:
Renting is just not an option. I don't think of this as camera worries but a great chance to upgrade our capabilities!

Thanks to everyone for all the input!

I'm leaning towards the FS7. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck and allows for some room to buy accessories.

I'd like to go for F55, if I could swing it budget-wise.
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Both the FS7 and F55 are great cameras—different, but great. For most work, the FS7 is going to be more than enough. The ability of the user will be a much higher determinant to end quality than your choice of camera here.

rodwell66 said:
Any opinions on glass for those cameras? Sony has a "deal" on their CineAlta 4K lenses, six of them for $12,900, or I might go with 3 Schneiders for about the same price.

The C300 could still be a candidate, especially due to the "fire sale" pricing on it now. Would love to wait for the next version, but from what I read the changes are somewhat minor anyway. There are many more glass options if we went that route.
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The Sony lenses intrigued me when I found them, but something's not quite right. Theoretically they are at least as good optically as the first gen primes that came with the F3 (which despite their mechanical problems, make beautiful images). I've heard that Sony overcompensated on build quality, so they are very well built—if a little heavy.

I had planned to buy a set, but wanted to wait until after NAB so that I could handle them. I went to the Sony booth, but after about an hour of asking, was told that they hadn't brought any with them. What?! You have a great set of lenses at an incredible price, and you don't even bring them to NAB?

So, yes. On paper it's a great set of lenses, but I'm very hesitant.

I have shot with the Schneiders, and they are—without question—exceptional lenses.

rodwell66 said:
And a couple final questions: I know the "competition" has thrown out the fact that they would shoot this job on a Red camera. Not even sure which model. But, a) is there any way I should I consider one of the Reds given a 30k or so budget? b) are any of the above models widely regarded as "on par" with any of the Reds?
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We've dealt with this. I've found that unless you're dealing with a very sophisticated client, simply claiming a 4k camera package is enough.
 
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