Need advice hmc40 vs ???

B

branimal

New member
Hello all,

I am in the research phase of a new camera purchase and found this site and it looks to be very helpful, so here it is...

I am graduating from my OLD ag-ez30 and just don't know what camera to get. I want an HMC40 but am afraid it will be overkill. I will shoot mostly music videos, indie short film projects and of course home movies. Of course I would like to make some money with it but let's just consider it a hobby camera purchase. I don't mind spending the money for it but is there something cheaper that will deliver anywhere near the same image quality and control?

Thanks in advance for any and all help!
 
Wannabe,

That is an opinion worth discussing. Elaborate please. What are the advantages as you know them. Why would the HMC40 be a bad choice in comparison. Let's help the OP with more than one line.

Depth of field is one reason. Low light capability would be another. Tell us the rest of the story.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
Wannabe,

That is an opinion worth discussing. Elaborate please. What are the advantages as you know them. Why would the HMC40 be a bad choice in comparison. Let's help the OP with more than one line.

Depth of field is one reason. Low light capability would be another. Tell us the rest of the story.

Grant
Click to expand...
well since you ask :)

he says hes going to be shooting "music videos, indie short film projects and of course home movies"

it sounds like he will have a fair amount of control over the situations ,and therefore wont need a run and gun camera (unless he chooses to shoot in that style) so the t2i seems fairly ideal for those situations

the image quality is certainly comparable ,but i would say that the t2i can produce even better quality than the hmc 40 ,when you use the right lens

depth of field ,hands down the t2i will win in this area given the right lens

t2i has interchangeable lenses ,hmc 40 does not

low light ,the hmc 40 will constantly annoy you with its low light cabilities
even stepping inside you will be surprised just how dark the image is
for example ,last month i was doing a shoot inside a roller rink
this place was by no means lit well ,but it was far from being dark
even in 720 30P shutter 30 ,gain 12db the image was very dark
the t2i is the clear winner here ,if you use a low f stop lens

ergonomics ,the 40 i suppose has the upper hand here ,although know that the zoom ring is unusable ,due to its lag

audio ,the 40 is again the winner ,you can buy the optional xlr adapter and get controls ,the t2i does not have this option

auto focus ,not every lens for the t2i has auto focus
the hmc 40 in my opinion has quite good af ,until you go inside ,it will continually hunt if there is not enough light for it

frame rates and resolution are the same between both cameras

i will say the hmc 40 in outside or very bright light is stunning

pictures ,the t2i all the way on this ,I honestly think 1080p grabs from video mode on the hmc 40 are better than the stills it takes
 
Not being a DSLR guy, I can't speak for the t2i. Regarding the HMC40, I agree with you.

Although I try to avoid "auto" because I usually shoot deliberately with a purpose, but I must say the HMC40 is a pretty good automatic cam. I had an occasion to grab and shoot an elk herd with no time to do anything, so I clicked on auto and the results were surprisingly good. So for the home movie thing, it is pretty solid.

Does the t2i have the ability to manage a scene file like the HMC40? This is important to me since I use a P2 cam also. The HMC40 scene files react pretty much like all the other Pannacams I have been around.

What codec does the t2i export?

Grant
 
Thanks for all the info so far!

So...perhaps selling my D5000 and picking up the t2i might be a good option...then I would have even less money out there/more money for accessories and what not.

While I'm usually going to have control over my shots, I am a little bit swayed by the ease of "run and gun" shooting the HMC40 offers. I'm just not sure that is enough to swing me that direction.

Any more options? Am I right in thinking that the slew of $800-$1000 camcorders are way below the quality and performance of the HMC40?

Thanks again.
 
Last edited:
You might consider the Panasonic HDC-TM700. It has most of the HMC40 features in a 1LB package at less than $800.
 
Be careful with DSLR's. They seem cheaper at first but you can quickly far surpass the cost of the HMC40 by the time you deck out the camera. DSLR's are kind of exciting right now but they are far from perfect. You will have to buy a darn good mic, extra lenses, ect. DSLR's do offer a lot of creative control but this can also hurt your video if not used carefully. I have seen a lot of DSLR video that just looks like garbage. You really have to shoot well to get good video out of a DSLR. I'm sick and tired of all the shaky rack focused video that looks like the focus was tied to somebodies lungs after they ran a triathlon. That is not good video. It is different and something a lot of people couldn't do before but it is not good. How many movies do you see shot like that outside of French films like Amelie.

Also a DSLR does not have the same resolution and framerates as the HMC40. Yes a T2i can shoot 720p 60p video but it isn't very good looking compared to the HMC40. There is really bad line interpolation with the 720p modes. The T2i also cannot shoot interlaced video. Now many here would say big deal but 1080i is a broadcast standard and sometimes you may have to use it. With the HMC40 you can, with the T2i you are SOL. Also the resolution of a DSLR is no where near the same as the HMC40. Yes they both record 1920x1080 pixels but that is not what either of the cameras resolve as raw image detail. The T2i has a softer more organic look to it and the HMC40 has a more crisp detailed look to it. This really depends on your preference of course but it is something to keep in mind.

Finally how long do you plan on shooting for? The reason I ask is because DSLR's can only record for a certain amount of time. If you are doing a scripted shoot this may be fine but if you ever have to shoot a concert or live event where you need to shoot the entire time then it could be a problem.

I think both cameras a great cameras and I love the look of both of them. In a perfect world I would say to get both of them or at least the T2i and maybe a Panasonic TM700. Together both of those cameras give you many shooting style options for the same price as a HMC40. If I only wanted one then I personally would choose the HMC40. It allows me to shoot pretty much any type of video I could ever want outside of some creative depth of field shots. Keep in mind depth of field is not the end all of good production values. Eventually I think people will get sick of seeing it.
 
+1 to what Thomas said.

In particular, in decent light, the IQ of the HMC is simply stunning. Although it lacks a few things which pro cams have, it has most everything you need if you include the XLR audio box. One thing you need for sure in my experience is a polarizer and or a ND filter. On bright days, there isn't enough bright light control.

The TM700 will have the same audio issues as a DSLR: 1/8" input with little control. So you would need to augment the TM700 with one of the DSLR solutions to get good audio, so add around $400 to the cost.

There seems to be disagreement about the frame rate question which is very important. The HMC has all the important pro frame rates built in 720p24, 720p30, 720p60, 1080p24, 1080p30, and 1080/60i.

The add on costs to DSLRs don't really make them less expensive. Good glass costs a lot along with all the add on stuff including audio, ergonomic patches, viewfinder accessories and the like.

In my end game, what a DSLR offers over a traditional vid cam is depth of field and not much more. You can get that out of a 35mm adapter if that is really important, at additional cost.

Grant
 
ggrantly,

So to rid audio issues of the tm700 (or similar), you're looking at another $400? That almost puts you back to the price of the HMC40...How necessary is the XLR adapter and mic with the HMC40?

Thanks so much for the info everyone...
 
branimal said:
ggrantly,

So to rid audio issues of the tm700 (or similar), you're looking at another $400? That almost puts you back to the price of the HMC40...How necessary is the XLR adapter and mic with the HMC40?

Thanks so much for the info everyone...
Click to expand...

Well it really all depends what kind of audio you want. Some consider XLR a must although a simple adapter from XLR to 1/8" will usually sound just as good. Again it all really depends on how much you want to limit your future. Sure you may be able to get by now but what about a few months from you. I would hate to see you stuck with no options for a particular paid job with certain requirements.

I should note that I have a HMC40 and currently do not use the XLR adapter. I do however run two wireless mics into a special cable so I can get proper left and right recording. It is crude but it works great for now. The beauty of the HMC40 however is that I know I can addon the XLR adapter if I need it. I used to use a Canon XL1 with it's XLR adapter and if you ever need to pull an audio feed from a bands mixer board without a doubt you will need it. I find 1/8" to be fine for shotgun mics or wireless mics that have a very short cable. The level of independant control over the input however is pretty much nil. It is a plugin and cross your fingers sort of thing. There are times I really do feel like I have taken a huge step backwards when it comes to audio with my old Canon XL1. That and I really miss recording 4 channels of audio.

One other thing to note about the audio. on the T2i I beleive you will hear the lens when you focus and zoom. The tiny mic picks up a lot of the sounds from the camera itself. The HMC40 I beleive is much better at it. This is why almost everybody I have seen says you must get a good mic for a DSLR before you can even think of shooting. Notice how many DSLR videos on Vimeo only have music on them?
 
BR,

Regarding audio, I'll simplify this, and you can do your own research. Cameras with 1/8" inputs lack four key ingredients for good audio. First is XLR inputs which have improved resistance to interference. Better quality mics usually use XLR cables, but can be adapted. Second, is 48v (phantom) power for condenser typ mics. XLR cables are wired to deliver this power from the cam. DSLRs with 1/8" inputs don't offer phantom power and have no way to deliver it. Dynamic type mics don't need phantom power to operate but are very limited in type and quality. For the most part, the best quality mics are condenser type, and need phantom power to operate. There are a few condenser mics that have internal batteries for power, but these are limited in type and selection. The three mics that come to mind are the Rode video mic, Rode NTG-2 shotgun, and AT-897 shotgun. This is a limiting selection, but may get you by. The third limitation of 1/8" audio input is a lack of real time control over the audio input. By that I mean physical dials to control the input. Adjusting for varying volumes during your shoot is pretty important. And last, most 1/8" cams don't have a headphone jack so you can monitor your audio.

For cams that have 1/8" inputs, the add on boxes like Juiced Link and Beachtek provide these four functions. There are some other factors which may be problematic for 1/8" cams including inferior quality recording capability. Many folks prefer to record audio separately to a portable recorder and mix it together in post. You can make any of this work, and work well, but it isn't as easy as just plugging a good quality mic and headphones into the cam, and hit the record button.

Take some time and read the stickies in the header of the audio section, it is a great resource.

Grant
 
Thanks for all the info and time Grant...very much appreciated.

After thinking all this through over the last couple weeks, I'm leaning towards the TM700. Mainly because I am going to have a decent learning curve and don't want to extend myself. Worse case, sell the TM and apply that money to an upgraded camera when the time is right.
Unless anyone has another rock solid argument against the TM700, I will be pulling the trigger in the next week or so. (In other words...talk me out of it!!!! HA)
 
Branimal,

As long as you make your own informed decision, that is what matters.

I would leave you with one final thought:

Good audio is 55% of good video.

Grant
 
I wrote a review of the TM700 that is in the articles section here.

Might want to read it.

Didn't address the TM700 audio, because my view was using it as a B camera.

There are ergonomic issues with cam.

On the plus side is stunning video in 1080/60p.
 
Plus, from what I have read, the TM700 has a slightly wider lens than the HMC40/41, which could be useful - 35mm versus the 41mm of the HMC.
 
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