Need advice about an audio dilemma!

F

FaustZ

Member
Hi everyone. I have a bit of a dilemma that I hope you can help me out with. First I have to explain my situation:




About three years ago, I got a bunch of gear, including the Rode NTG-2 microphone, a Rode blimp as well as an XLR adapter for my then primary camera, a Panasonic AG-HMC40 (among some other things).


This single system recording setup worked very well, and the audio I got was very clean.


Fast forward about two years: I decided to get a DSLR to shoot my films with (Canon T3i), but of course, probably the best way to go in terms of audio when using a DSLR is a two system setup. A camera for video, and a mic with external recorder for audio.


This is all well and good, but upon buying and trying out a recorder (Tascam DR-40, I believe), I discovered that the NTG-2 is a very low sensitivity mic, which necessitates a lot of gain, and results in a very crackly and noisy sound. From what I've seen, the external recorders that actually have preamps good enough to get clean sound are out of my price range, so I was out of luck.


I believe it is because panasonic has high quality noise reduction in their cameras that it was the only thing that could get a clean sound from the NTG-2. Since then, I have simply been using my panasonic camera as my audio recorder.


However, this is obviously not an optimal setup, because not only do I have to carry my huge camcorder around with me just to record audio, but it records to big video files, needs its own tripod and has no manual audio settings.


So the way I see it, these are my options:


Buy a recorder AND preamp separately that can get clean audio from the NTG-2, or
Sell my NTG-2 and buy a different mic, plus an external recorder.


What do you think I should do? Can anyone recommend a combination of mic and recorder (similarly priced to the ones I've mentioned) that will work for me? This is a problem I've just had to deal with for a while, but I will be shooting a new film soon and decided it was time to resolve it.
 
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FaustZ said:
... probably the best way to go in terms of audio when using a DSLR is a two system setup. A camera for audio, and a mic with external recorder for video.
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Perhaps you meant those the other way around?

FaustZ said:
This is all well and good, but upon buying and trying out a recorder (Tascam DR-40, I believe), I discovered that the NTG-2 is a very low sensitivity mic, which necessitates a lot of gain, and results in a very crackly and noisy sound. From what I've seen, the external recorders that actually have preamps good enough to get clean sound are out of my price range, so I was out of luck.

I believe it is because panasonic has high quality noise reduction in their cameras that it was the only thing that could get a clean sound from the NTG-2. Since then, I have simply been using my panasonic camera as my audio recorder.
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It has nothing to do with noise reduction. It has everything to do with the output level of the NTG-2, which is lower than some, and the ability of the pre-amp in any given device to provide enough clean gain for the NTG-2. The DR-40 and NTG-2 are a combination known not to work well.

FaustZ said:
So the way I see it, these are my options:

Buy a recorder AND preamp separately that can get clean audio from the NTG-2, or
Sell my NTG-2 and buy a different mic, plus an external recorder.

What do you think I should do? Can anyone recommend a combination of mic and recorder (similarly priced to the ones I've mentioned) that will work for me? This is a problem I've just had to deal with for a while, but I will be shooting a new film soon and decided it was time to resolve it.
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The AT-875r from Aufio-Technica has a hotter output that tends to work well with weaker pre-amps, so that's an option. Or you could look at adding a mixer in front of your recorder (look for a good deal on a used Sound Devices MixPre). Or you could look at moving up to a better recorder that has a more friendly form factor and better pre-amps (look for a good deal on a used Fostex FR-2LE). Adding a mixer means that you can upgrade the recorder at any time down the road, when and if you get to the point that you need or want to.
 
Perhaps you meant those the other way around?
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Whoops, good catch! You're absolutely right, haha

It has nothing to do with noise reduction. It has everything to do with the output level of the NTG-2, which is lower than some, and the ability of the pre-amp in any given device to provide enough clean gain for the NTG-2. The DR-40 and NTG-2 are a combination known not to work well.
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I see, thanks for the info. Yeah, the Zoom H4n is another one that I've seen people have problems with.

The AT-875r from Aufio-Technica has a hotter output that tends to work well with weaker pre-amps, so that's an option. Or you could look at adding a mixer in front of your recorder (look for a good deal on a used Sound Devices MixPre). Or you could look at moving up to a better recorder that has a more friendly form factor and better pre-amps (look for a good deal on a used Fostex FR-2LE). Adding a mixer means that you can upgrade the recorder at any time down the road, when and if you get to the point that you need or want to.
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Hm, I'll look into these. Thanks for the response, Alex!
 
FWIW, the newer Tascam DR-60Dmkii for $200 and the just released Tascam DR-70D for $300 have better preamps and more gain and can probably drive your ntg-2 and both are an affordable option that's DSLR-friendly if you need that at any point. The AT875r Alex mentions has a good rep and is quite affordable at $150 new, but then again, you already know the ntg-2 and its quirks and that way you're not spending any money other than $200-$300 for the Tascam mixer/recorders. You might get one of the new Tascams and try it out with the ntg-2, so that's just another option.
 
OldCorpse said:
FWIW, the newer Tascam DR-60Dmkii for $200 and the just released Tascam DR-70D for $300 have better preamps and more gain and can probably drive your ntg-2 and both are an affordable option that's DSLR-friendly if you need that at any point. The AT875r Alex mentions has a good rep and is quite affordable at $150 new, but then again, you already know the ntg-2 and its quirks and that way you're not spending any money other than $200-$300 for the Tascam mixer/recorders. You might get one of the new Tascams and try it out with the ntg-2, so that's just another option.
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Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I think I will try one of those, since as you mentioned, I do have a feel for the NTG-2 already, and it would be nice not to have to deal with selling something on top of buying two new things, rather than just buying one thing. I'd probably go with the 60Dmkii, but how about the 100DmkII? Anybody ever used that with an NTG-2?
 
The Zoom H5 has the much better preamp of the Zoom H6. They're a good step up from the H4N and almost the same quality as the 60D. Small, light, works as mic preamp to get sound into your T3i and has an extra headphone plug for monitoring. I get 12h battery life from 2xAA lithium batteries using the NTG-3.

The 100dmk2 sounds worse than the 60D which sounds worse than the 60Dmk2 but costs the same...
 
Well, I would not necessarily recommend the 60D - I have it, and the gain I find somewhat on the weaker side, I have to crank everything to "HIGH" just to get usable audio recorded on even sensitive mics. So I'd definitely go for the 60Dmkii (or 70D). There is also one caveat with the 60D - and presumably also the newer 60Dmkii and 70D - the battery life is very poor. With good batteries you get anywhere from 2-4 hours, which is very poor. Now, it's not an issue for me, because these can be powered through the USB, and I use a powerbank on my 60D that can power it for days at a time, but if you do go this route, then that's an extra $20-$40 for the powerbank, plus it's another item that needs to be connected... if you use it separate from the DSLR (like in a bag), then that's obviously not much of an issue at all, but if you are putting it on a DLSR that's extra weight and ergonomic impact.
 
Yeah, definitely not mounting it on the camera as I will be using a shoulder rig, and the added height will not allow enough clearance for the lens to stick through the matte box. Battery life is definitely a concern, especially since I will probably be using phantom power. The 100dmkII uses a rechargeable battery as well as AA batteries, and switches between them automatically when necessary, giving slightly longer life. They also say that the 100dmkII has improved preamps over the previous version, plus the built in mics, which the 60dmkii doesn't have.

But I dunno, as a person who knows very little about production audio, this whole situation is very confusing. Many people say that the NTG-2 works with the 100dmkii, some say it works better with the 60dmkii. A handful of people even claim good results with the Zoom h4n. Some use a preamp, others don't, but still seemingly get good results. All of this contradictory info makes it difficult to come to a decision. :undecided
 
The NTG-2 inherently has a low output, so a good quality quiet preamp with a lot of gain would be wanted.. The 'new' Tascam recorders allegedly offer an additional setting for increased gain, I have no idea about the noise factor.
 
Why would you be considering the dr-100mkii at all, over the 70D, other than it's $100 cheaper? From your use scenarios, there seems little point to the dr-100mkii.
 
OldCorpse said:
Why would you be considering the dr-100mkii at all, over the 70D, other than it's $100 cheaper?
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Well, I think you hit the nail on the head there. $200 is in my budget but I'm not yet sure if $300 is. The other thing is that I like the idea of also having a recorder to capture foley and room tone as well, and neither the 70d or the 60dmkII have built in mics.
 
Room tone is normally recorded just after dialog, with NO changes to the set, personnel, gear and gear settings. Perhaps you mean atmosphere (atmos) recording, which are considered S/FX. 'Foley' (proper name, with a capital 'F') is normally done in a studio w/ studio mics.
 
That's what I mean. After each scene I usually record a minute or two of the ambient noise of the location, to bridge the gap between harsh edits or to fill silence/cover up background noises etc. Because I don't have access to a studio or any professional recording space, I also usually record my sound effects such as footsteps on location as well (sometimes even dialogue, if necessary). In any case, I doubt a shotgun mic would provide much value in these cases, hence why I like the idea of having a recorder that also has built in mics. You'll have to forgive my ignorance; I have little experience with these things.
 
FaustZ said:
That's what I mean. After each scene I usually record a minute or two of the ambient noise of the location, to bridge the gap between harsh edits or to fill silence/cover up background noises etc. Because I don't have access to a studio or any professional recording space, I also usually record my sound effects such as footsteps on location as well (sometimes even dialogue, if necessary). In any case, I doubt a shotgun mic would provide much value in these cases, hence why I like the idea of having a recorder that also has built in mics. You'll have to forgive my ignorance; I have little experience with these things.
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That's just it: room tone is recorded with the same mic as dialog, and in the same space. Immediately after the shot/scene, ask all cast and crew to "lock it down" (stay perfectly still) for :30-:60. You don't want to change ANYthing (including keeping all production lights running). Record the room's noise floor at that time.

And if something changes between takes of the same scene that drastically affects the background noise, record room tone again with the new interference. The point is to get the sound of the room as it appears under the dialog so that you can make edits to dialog without the noise floor disappearing.

Anything you grab with the built-in mics on a handheld recorder is useless as room tone. Also, the shotgun mic will be just fine for grabbing footsteps (wild FX in this case), as that will be a mono sound source, same as dialog. Also good for grabbing other wild FX like slamming doors, scooting chairs, etc.

Where a handheld recorder with built-in stereo mics will come in handy is for returning to the location later to grab ambient sound beds (very different from room tone) such as traffic on a city street or a creek running through the woods ort birds chirping in the trees. These sound beds are laid in after the dialog edit in order to help build the overall soundscape.
 
Well a few things.

Alex pretty much said it. Room Tone needs to be from the mic you were using for the dialog, it's sole reason for being is to fill in holes in the production track.

Ambiences and such should be recorded where those ambiences that your STORY wants exist. That is not normally on or even close to the set.
Foley is a very specific thing. What you are talking about is FX. There is a term that was used by some folks for the footsteps etc. done in the wild, WIFO (WIld FOley). It's kind of a contradiction in terms since it's not Foley. The idea was that it was sounds that would normally be done in Foley, but were recorded as FX. All the snow footsteps in "Never Cry Wolf" for instance were recorded wild in actual snow in Alaska and then cut in.

And the last point I guess is that the 70 does have microphones, not sure why nobody else didn't mention that. It has a pair built in to the unit. The 60 doesn't though.
 
As Scott mentioned: the 70D does have microphones - two of them!

See here - Tascam DR-70D

Where it says: "Two in-built microphones", there's a little + sign, click on it, and you'll see the photo of the microphones on the Tascam DR-70D with this caption:

"The two omnidirectional microphones allow you to easily record natural stereo sound with just this unit. Used together with small shotgun mics, you can even record audio from people speaking in an interview and the ambient sound at the same time (on different tracks), for example, with a compact set up."

So bottom line, it is a question of the extra $100, but consider that you'll have a lot more features compared to the 100mkii (although the 100mkii has some unique features too, like a speaker).
 
Thanks for the clarification guys. Maybe I'll try to stretch for the 70D and post my findings if and when I get them. Or maybe I'll just try out the 60D and see how that performs. As a side note, this guy seems to get good results from the NTG-2 with both the 60D and the 100Dmkii, though he did say that the 60d was better. I imagine the 60dmkii can only be an improvement. No mics on that one though.
 
OldCorpse said:
FWIW, the newer Tascam DR-60Dmkii for $200 and the just released Tascam DR-70D for $300 have better preamps and more gain and can probably drive your ntg-2 and both are an affordable option that's DSLR-friendly if you need that at any point. The AT875r Alex mentions has a good rep and is quite affordable at $150 new, but then again, you already know the ntg-2 and its quirks and that way you're not spending any money other than $200-$300 for the Tascam mixer/recorders. You might get one of the new Tascams and try it out with the ntg-2, so that's just another option.
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This is exactly what I was thinking. I currently have a DR-60D (first gen) that I mount underneath my 7D in my Norbert Sport frame on my ProShot shoulder rig and it works really well. When I've needed to use iris rods with a matte box I move the DR-60D to the top of Norbert Sport. The DR-60D has a 1/4 x 20 threaded hole on the bottom, and I use a shoe adapter to put that on the top of norbert since the norbert has lots of shoes on the top for mounting stuff. I use a Sanken CS-1 or CS-3e depending on the situation. For what I do (product demo videos...basically talking head stuff) this has worked beautifully.
 
I do like the idea of being able to capture sound to both the recorder and my T3i simultaneously. There will likely be situations during shooting where the camera and mic need to be separated, but when they are together I can probably attach it to the side of my rig somehow. Yeah, I think I will try out the 60D mkII. The only problem is battery life. What do you guys think of these USB battery packs: #1, #2? How much more life do you suppose I would get from these over the standard 4x AA batteries that the 60D takes?
 
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