ND-filtering for the FS100EK: advise needed...

[moldcad]

In preparation for my (hopefully soon) FS100 purchase, I'd like to ask the fellow users for advise on ND filtering.... Here are my main concerns:

1. Screw-on variable ND filter: which one offers the best price/performance ratio (Heliopan, Tiffen)? Also, the largest filter diameter lens I currently have is 72mm (see below) - should I go with a 72mm ND variable filter, or pick the 77mm one?

2. Reduction rings: using my rig without a matte box, I'll be using the following filter sizes (including the kit 18200 and several Canon still lenses I have): 72, 67, 55, 52mm. Any good source for reduction rings? Any considerations re unwanted side effects of using them (vignetting)?

3. 4x5.65" ND filters: using my RR mattebox (mainly with the tripod rig), I'd like to be able to get as wide ND range as possible without ill effects of stacking 2 filters. I already have an ND0.6 4x5.65" filter; which densities should I be getting to achieve 8-10 f-Stop Reduction (needed for fully opening my F1.4 lens in bright sunshine), and anything between 2 stops (that I have now) and the 8-10 maximum?

Please bear in mind I have no particular experience in this aspect of videography, so I'd appreciate exhaustive answers a lot Also of some importance is suggesting a single on-line source for getting all this stuff (shipment charges, and import hassle). TIA

Piotr

 

[mico]

!. Seeing as both the tiffen( which I heard was recalled for some threading issue) and the heliopan are almost impossible to get we need the few who have gotten ones to speak up. I also heard that the heliopan does not have any front threads so using a lens hood isn't possible. I am holding out for the tiffen hoping its quality is up there and that it has front threads. I would go with a 77mm as alot of lenses are of this size and it might help on the wide lenses to prevent vingetting.

2. Ebay is the best source for step up rings. Very cheap and free shipping most of the time. Try and get your vari ND as thin as possible and with one step up ring and a wide angle lens hood you just might be able to avoid vignetting. I am still trying to get a nikon 12-24mm to work with a vari ND but I get vignettingon the widest end because I also want a lens hood to be attached.

3. Tiffen and others are now making some very large range ND's like 2.1's, 1.8's, 1.5's and 1.2's. B&H photo video in the US has the stop range for each size on their site. Personally I have a 1.5 a .9 and .6 in 4x4.

 

[moldcad]

Thanks @mico.

ad 1. So 77mm is the size to go - probably you're right, I might be buying more lenses in the future so limiting myself to the largest dimater of those I already have wouldn't be wise

ad 2. The disadvantage of eBay is that you cannot test before you buy (but same applies to any on-line shopping), therefore I'm still counting on some tested and approved solution of step-up rings for my glass

ad 3. This is a naive question, but how do I "calculate" the f-Stop Reduction resulting from stacking say 2 ND filters? Is it a simple sum (e.g. will my ND.6 plus an ND2.4 filters yield 10 stops of reduction)?

 

[mico]

Heres a pic of a setup with a lightcraft vari ND 77mm. It has a 82mm front thread. It was good idea light craft had to have a wider front end to prevent vignetting but the glass is not top shelf. This is a sony emount 16mm lens with 82mm lens hood. The sony lens is 49mm so one step up ring to 77mm was needed. No vignetting.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/rigrz.jpg/

All the ebay rings I have bought have worked and we're talking 3 to 4 US dollars for each. Considering B&H and others charge 15-20 US dollars for each I think the risk of them not working is worth it. Just get all your lens filter threads sizes and order appropriate step up rings all to 77mm of course only If you are going to go with the 77mm vari ND.

Yes just add up the ND stop reduction total.

 

[moldcad]

Thanks again

Looking at the pics of my current shoulder-support rig, do you think it would work with the FS100 replacing the EX1, without any major modifications (apart from probably making it shorter, depending on the lens used)? Of course, I realize I'll have to put my Marshall monitor on the left handle -before I'm able to fork $1,000 for the Zacuto EVF :huh:...

 

[mico]

The one thing I've enjoyed with the Fs100 is that it can be molded into whatever configuration I can dream up with my existing accessories and only added Berkey systems stuff to make it even more configurable that wasn't possible with my EX1. So I think you will be fine.

 

[speedracerlo]

3. This is a naive question, but how do I "calculate" the f-Stop Reduction resulting from stacking say 2 ND filters? Is it a simple sum (e.g. will my ND.6 plus an ND2.4 filters yield 10 stops of reduction)?

ND 3 = 1 Stop Loss (reduce ISO to 1/2)
ND 6 = 2 Stop Loss (reduce ISO to 1/4)
ND 9 = 3 Stop etc etc

 

[Rick Burnett]

I use the FaderND from Lightcraft and have tested it on and off the camera. I have NO problem from 30mm to 85mm. Outside of that range I have heard other people having problems so I haven't used it there. I have NO issue with sharpness, but I do believe there is a tiny blue shift that I just fix in post.

I bought the 72, should have bought the 77.

I want to get the heliopan. The only issue I have heard with it is vignetting slightly at 11mm.

 

[alaskacameradude]

I use the FaderND from Lightcraft and have tested it on and off the camera. I have NO problem from 30mm to 85mm. Outside of that range I have heard other people having problems so I haven't used it there. I have NO issue with sharpness, but I do believe there is a tiny blue shift that I just fix in post.

I bought the 72, should have bought the 77.

I want to get the heliopan. The only issue I have heard with it is vignetting slightly at 11mm.

I've ordered the 77mm Heliopan, it was shipped yesterday morning, so I should have it next week sometime. Once I getit
, I will take a day to shoot some stuff with the FS 100 and I'll post observations on how it is to have the filter
on the FS-100.

 

[Rick Burnett]

EXCELLENT! What lenses will you be testing?

 

[Postmaster]

Got the Heliopan since about 2 weeks (sometime it is a plus to live in Germany hehehe).

First of all, I never had a problem with the FS100, for not having build in ND filters.
No cinema camera has that,
nor does the RED and who ever complained about that?

Usually I´m a man of the matte box, but I realized, that I would have to buy at least 3 or 4 more (pretty expensive) 4x4 NDs to cover most situations.
The Heliopan costs what one 4x4 costs, but gives me a very fine, almost seamless graduation in just one single unit.
That helps a lot in some run and gun situations, where you have to be very quick.

I have step down rings for all my lenses from ebay - works fine.
As long as the filter is bigger as your lens, you will see no vignetting.

Bottom line: I´m extremely happy with it, would buy it again and can well recommend it, since the optical quality is superb and things don´t go soft even on my 135mm.

A bit of a down side is, the Heliopan has only one tread. I hoped that I could bolt a rubber sunshade in front of it and use that to dial the filter in - no dice.

hope that helps, Frank

 

[alaskacameradude]

EXCELLENT! What lenses will you be testing?

Right away, I'll be testing the kit lens. Hopefully very soon after that, I will be testing either 24-70 or 28-75 F2.8 and
a 70-200 F 2.8. Not 100% sure yet what brand they will be, I have to check with the local camera shop here and see what he has
in. My inclination at this point, is to go for Sony A mount lenses as I am not a still photographer and do not have any
bodies I have to worry about the lenses working with, my main worry is getting as much control as possible on the FS-100.

 

[alaskacameradude]

Ya, the sunshade thing is what I am trying to figure out a solution to right now.....I have heard there may be a third
party company coming up with something that will snap over the filter. I may try and cobble something up
myself in the meantime.

 

[mico]

Curious if anyone has or has ordered the new tiffen variable ND. The new release date is July 15 from what I've read. It has front threads. 8 stops and thin outside optic is larger than the inner like the lightcraft to cut down vignetting. Whether it has quality glass like they say is the question. And its only $189.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFlfRt4SEp8

 

[OldCorpse]

That Tiffen variable ND sounds very interesting. I was crying over having to fork out over $400 for the 77mm Helio. I hope the quality is comparable . What sizes do the Tiffen VND come in?

 

[trez]

I had two Genus vari-NDs. Got rid of them once I saw the footage. Very pronounced artifacts with some focal lenses Singh-Ray might be better...
I'm getting 4x5.65 glass filters for my mattebox. You won't be able to get 8-10 stops of reduction with single filter. I don't really think you need that much. 6 is enough for me. I don't shoot wide open in the sunlight anyway - think it's better to close the lens down to, say, f4.0 or even 5.6, more natural.
As far as ND1.2-ND1.8 range is concerned, I'd rather get IRNDs. You must be aware that higher grade NDs may introduce serious color shift due to infrared sensor sensitivity (pale asphalt, black clothes not longer black etc.). Tiffen IRNDs are not good. You probably get the same results stacking plain ND and IR. Schneider Platinum, released this year, are promising and not very expensive. Pancro are the best choice if you have $$$.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Is there any site that really breaks down ND differences? I don't mind using non-vari screw on ND but for the life of me I cannot find a good source that compares them.

 

[moldcad]

As far as ND1.2-ND1.8 range is concerned, I'd rather get IRNDs. You must be aware that higher grade NDs may introduce serious color shift due to infrared sensor sensitivity (pale asphalt, black clothes not longer black etc.). Tiffen IRNDs are not good. You probably get the same results stacking plain ND and IR. Schneider Platinum, released this year, are promising and not very expensive. Pancro are the best choice if you have $$$.

Witaj trez

Speaking of IR, I do have the Tiffen T1 long-red cutting, 4x5.35" filter. I do a lot of concert shooting under artificial light, and the musicians' black suits were rendered rust-coloured by my EX1, so I had to buy it... Will it also work with the FS100 when I stack it with say the ND1.8 in the mattebox? Or do I need a regular IR filter to use with heavy ND?

BTW. Prosze o PM - moze nawiazemy jakas wspolprace? Mialbym kilka pytan, anyway

 

[alaskacameradude]

Ok, I just got in the Heliopan filter. I paid $400 for it, and was thinking that was kind of a steep price. But, I just put it on my camera, and I can safely say, that it was worth every penny and then some! You know how some things you buy, and they are really worth it? This is one of those things! Trust me, if you have a chance, run, don't walk, and buy it for your FS-100! It is SUCH a nice piece of glass, no color cast or softness, period, even at long focal lengths. And it is seamless when you turn it, no 'steppiness' it's like turning an iris ring on a shoulder mount video camera. WOW I am really, really impressed. You can pick any F stop you want, set the F-Stop, and dial in correct exposure with the ND filter. I know I'm raving, but it has impressed me as much as the FS-100 did when I got it. Having this on the front of your FS-100 is just a killer combination. It's cloudy out right now, so I can't test it in the sunshine, but it seems to have plenty of light reduction (I was testing in 1080 24P.) The ONLY downside that I can see, is that with the Heliopan on the front of your lens, you cannot have a sunshade on it as there are no screw in filters on the front of the Heliopan. I am going to look around at some video camera bolt on sunshades and see if I can figure anything out for that. If I can't, I'll probably just buy a cheap mattebox and use that as the sunshade. Man, this is one must have accessory, it's even BETTER than having built in ND filters! Instead of having the choice of 4 different ND strengths, you have a total seamless spectrum of choices. If you had a still lens with 'steppiness' in the iris (which I personally HATE) you could set your F-Stop, and then use
the Heliopan filter ring as your iris as it is so smooth, with hard stops at each end.

Here's a couple pictures (sorry, I bumped the focus on a couple of these by accident)

Without any ND filtering


With some ND filtering



A little less ND


Maximum ND (To show there's some left over for brighter days)

 

[NeedCreative]

I have a Lightcraft Fader ND II at 77mm with step rings to use other lens sizes. It gives me 2-8 stops of reduction but really closer to 6 as with many lenses once I push past 6 or 7 I start to see the cross artifact or other weird issues show up. I also screwed in a B+W rubber lens hood (82mm) to it to get some control over flare/sun and still be able to rotate the filter. However, this is more for run and gun and for use with my HDSLR. As someone pointed out (and I have since discovered), the LCW filter reduces sharpness at some focal lengths and adds a color cast and other polarizing artifacts as all polarizers do.

So for narrative and more planned, less gorilla style shots, I have purchased a Genus Wide Matte box kit and will be using Tiffen ND 4X4 solids in different combinations of .6, .9, and 1.8. I also got a grad 0.9 ND and a linear polarizer (which works with the F3 so it should work here). From what I have read and seen, the Tiffen have little to no noticeable color cast or reduction in resolution associated with using them.

The .6 is a 2 stop reduction, the .9 is a 3 stop reduction. Stacking those two would give a 5 stop reduction. I don't want to stack if I have a choice though, so I also got a 1.8 which is 6 stops of reduction for a very sunny/bright day. I found with the FS100, shooting fast glass say at F1.4 or F2 at 48fps you need a min of 6-8 stops of ND. Moving up to F4 you can probably get away with 5 stops depending on the environment. In a pinch I could also stack the 1.8 and .6 to get 8 stops, and the 1.8 and .9 to get 9 stops if I am shooting the sun or something at F2.8 lol

I'll test this all further when I get some time.

For those who need a handy chart as to how many stops is what, the progression goes like this, each a 1 full stop increment: 1 - 1.4 - 2 - 2.8 - 4 - 5.6 - 8 - 11 - 16 - 22

So for example if I normally had to shoot at F22 to get a good exposure at 48 or 50 fps, I can use that ND 1.8 to get down to F2.8. Or stack the 1.8 and .6 and go down to F1.4. Most of my lenses are F2.8 but my Zeiss are F1.4 and F2 respectively so lots of ND helps.

How much does the FS100 need? Well, in practice, shooting at F2 with my Zeiss 35 on an extremely bright day by the water with 0 db of gain I needed about 8 stops. Couldn't get there with the LCW filter, so I backed off to 6 or 7 stops and managed. Its an incredibly sensitive camera.