Native 24P/25p settings/problems discussion

PappasArts said:
Well it will be interesting to see as more people get with the new PTOOL and try it, how it does. Funny it was a mad house with crazy traffic not long ago, and now it's become a partial ghost town here.

Pappas
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Thats because all of the folks who flooded the place were people just looking for the "fix". The came, they took, they asked the same questions about how to load their firmware, in 5 different threads, then left. :2vrolijk_08:

Most of them have never posted test results, only questions.
 
PappasArts said:
Well it will be interesting to see as more people get with the new PTOOL and try it, how it does. Funny it was a mad house with crazy traffic not long ago, and now it's become a partial ghost town here.

Pappas
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Yes makes me wonder if everyone has colluded via PM and run off with all the good settings.....arhhhh another mammoth break thru will bring them scrambling back...haha .....Did someone say HDMI out!!!!!
 
Svart said:
Thats because all of the folks who flooded the place were people just looking for the "fix". The came, they took, they asked the same questions about how to load their firmware, in 5 different threads, then left. :2vrolijk_08:

Most of them have never posted test results, only questions.
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Svart,

I have a name for them............

That's the world we live in- made up of quick fix types that suck the blood/resources of others efforts, and don't replenish. Total BS.
How many of those were saying they need perfect setting settings "NOW!", weeks ago.... " cause I'm making my feature" - Feature- what- to be projected in your garage... LOL

This project is not a total freebie- You need to report findings- if just basic info and findings- better than nothing- People don't get it's a community effort that's is interactive...

Svart,

Have you tested the new Ptool patches?

rambooc1 said:
arhhhh another mammoth break thru will bring them scrambling back...haha .....Did someone say HDMI out!!!!!
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Grrrrrrrrrr---

rambooc1,

Did you think of matching the exact settings here- just to see if you get the same results? Or did you?
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2042681&postcount=32


Pappas
 
Well, its even come down to one person the other day signing up as new member and with the first post he started a thread offering money to the first person that could answer all the questions he had about the firmware hack so he wouldn't have to bother searching through "the piles of crappy threads" (as he called them) for the answers himself. Hopefully the mods will delete his thread since that really goes against the whole volunteer and community spirit of this forum and most of its members.

Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=216474

Randy
 
Cavemandude said:
Well, its even come down to one person the other day signing up as new member and with the first post he started a thread offering money to the first person that could answer all the questions he had about the firmware hack so he wouldn't have to bother searching through "the piles of crappy threads" (as he called them) for the answers himself. Hopefully the mods will delete his thread since that really goes against the whole volunteer and community spirit of this forum and most of its members.

Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=216474

Randy
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WOW- I didn't see that post.

That's so selfish- ""The Humanity"" I think I saw a few of those type in The Road.

None of this would exist- GH13 forums and all- if it wasn't for the selfless acts of one man- Vitaliy Kiselev.....

Don't some people get this....

I totally agree with you on what you posted: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2043896&postcount=6


Pappas
 
I agree with everything you guys are saying. Does anyone else have some kind of sick and twisted interest in this whole testing and reading process. I kinda love it :)
 
rambooc1 said:
C settings now = no errors and higher low level ( that was my result anyway)
Maybe Tester can explain what Preset1 does?
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I cannot confirm the raised low threshold effect of Preset Patches (1 & 2 at '234', 'A' Settings for AVCHD bitrate, 24P Native on). When shooting with lens cap on AVCHD avg bitrate drops down to 2.1 Mbps.

Also, examining footage (family type stuff) shot over the weekend I saw evidence of rogue P frames still present in some clips, which I haven't seen in static death chart shots I reported initially. I can't really identify the pattern of their appearance; lens used and exposure settings are the same, scene composition is fairly similar, yet one clip has a rogue P frame, but the other does not.

On a more positive note examining native 24p footage and comparing it to 24PsF footage shot last weekend with much higher bitrate settings (60,62,70 AVCHD settings) I can't help but acknowledge that the former just looks better. The color looks right, perhaps even "motion" itself. It's very heard to explain for an amateur like myself. Watch Kholi's clip of his kids and you'll understand. Or better yet go out and shoot some on your own. All these "problems" should not deter, but encourage people to shoot more ...
 
PappasArts said:
First Adam- Nice video- has very nice colors and a smooth look. Very beautiful beach, indeed.

The numbers are wrong- the first two numbers are higher than the third- which is what we have been told not to do in the past . Is this the reason for the fare errors in the video?

It's very easy- just look at the suggested numeric patterns given to you in Ptool "A" thru "C" settings- Follow that numerical increases- there is a reason why the numbers go up in scale from beginning to end- Best to follow that pattern.

Adam it would be good if you posted a report- Like did you have card failures/write errors on high detail static/motion shots? Did you have failures prior to the new patches that your not having now? Observations are important.This forum is a research technology project- and is only as good as the testers who report there research findings back to the rest of the community.

Try these:
AVCHD-Settings: 50, 50, 52, 70, 78


Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
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thanks pappas!
- no card failures/write errors
- up to now no problems with the 3.40d

i use Pana Gold class 10

the next with 50, 50, 52, 70, 78 - thank you!
 
rambooc1 said:
Yeah i saw that, he did say the Mud had returned with the A settings, so going to try increasing bitrate beyond that and see what happens.

Thanks Pappas
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Well the muddy I frame bug is present in the right conditions no matter what the bitrate. It's easy to spot in streameye since it's preceded by a blank (duplicate) P frame:

http://vimeo.com/12970560

I'm quite sure this bug is responsible for most of the 24p freezeups since they're the same shots that eventually crash the camera. The A settings + 234 seem to help greatly with the crashing but don't fix the muddy I frame bug. And raising the bitrate and presets even to the upper 20s can cause the camera to start crashing again
 
svecher said:
On a more positive note examining native 24p footage and comparing it to 24PsF footage shot last weekend with much higher bitrate settings (60,62,70 AVCHD settings) I can't help but acknowledge that the former just looks better. The color looks right, perhaps even "motion" itself. It's very heard to explain for an amateur like myself. Watch Kholi's clip of his kids and you'll understand. Or better yet go out and shoot some on your own. All these "problems" should not deter, but encourage people to shoot more ...
Click to expand...

svecher,

Have you moved up to testing C settings with the new patches in 24pn?

Pappas
 
rambooc1 said:
DITTO.... i'm also interested in what other find with this.
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PappasArts said:
svecher,

Have you moved up to testing C settings with the new patches in 24pn?

Pappas
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I have been actually testing the "surfer" settings, which are slightly higher in overall/limiting bitrate than Ptool "C". Again, mildly encouraging results, as with matching Preset patches we can actually pass the Death Chart test. The resulting 46 Mbps avg rate is the highest I've seen on progressive footage.

Also, it is interesting to note that [again] static shots look clean on low level, but rogue P frames still present when there is motion. Perhaps preset bitrate patches are targeted at having an effect on static shots, which previously choked the cam at these high of bitrate settings in native mode. More testing is needed in this direction.
 

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svecher said:
Perhaps preset bitrate patches are targeted at having an effect on static shots, which previously choked the cam at these high of bitrate settings in native mode. More testing is needed in this direction.
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So we still don't know exactly how to apply or what these Preset 1 and 2 do?

I only ticked Preset 1 in my test settings and found low level stayed above 20mbps for all 30 odd test clips i shot, this was with 25pN unticked.

My settings and report are here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2045075&postcount=24

A Software Engineer friend of mine said the rogue frames are most likely "purges" , of the encoder disposing of data it cannot process. Makes kind of sense but then i really wouldn't know.
 
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svecher said:
I have been actually testing the "surfer" settings, which are slightly higher in overall/limiting bitrate than Ptool "C". Again, mildly encouraging results, as with matching Preset patches we can actually pass the Death Chart test. The resulting 46 Mbps avg rate is the highest I've seen on progressive footage.

Also, it is interesting to note that [again] static shots look clean on low level, but rogue P frames still present when there is motion. Perhaps preset bitrate patches are targeted at having an effect on static shots, which previously choked the cam at these high of bitrate settings in native mode. More testing is needed in this direction.
Click to expand...

svecher,

Very promising and good report- the fact that write errors are not happening are a good thing. It's all looking quite good so far..
 
PappasArts said:
Svart,

Have you tested the new Ptool patches?
Click to expand...

I haven't. I've been out of town for the last handful of days. I should be testing again tomorrow or thursday. I haven't had a chance to read through all the new stuff yet either.

Anything specific I should focus on?
 
Svart said:
I haven't. I've been out of town for the last handful of days. I should be testing again tomorrow or thursday. I haven't had a chance to read through all the new stuff yet either.

Anything specific I should focus on?
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I think the best thing to test is "C" settings and above for 24PN. See how high we can get that bitrate to go with class 10 cards without write errors. I believe that gop should not be touched. Leave in .05 ( 15/12 gop ). Since that is the great thing about long GOP- it's efficiency is the key to its quality. It's all gravy no matter what. It seems that "C" settings in 24PN are stable with the new PTOOL which prior were not, as we all know. These bitrates are insane good compared to long gop video system- and all this on the little GH1. Still amazes me...........

Pappas
 
PappasArts said:
I think the best thing to test is "C" settings and above for 24PN. See how high we can get that bitrate to go with class 10 cards without write errors. I believe that gop should not be touched. Leave in .05 ( 15/12 gop ). Since that is the great thing about long GOP- it's efficiency is the key to its quality. It's all gravy no matter what. It seems that "C" settings in 24PN are stable with the new PTOOL which prior were not, as we all know. These bitrates are insane good compared to long gop video system- and all this on the little GH1. Still amazes me...........

Pappas
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Cool, I'll get on it.

Has Vitaliy told us what he changed in the native 24p to get this to work? Not to sound unappreciative of his work, I do wish he was more open about what changes he is making. I think it would help us sanity check the changes before we go through lots of testing.
 
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