Native 24P/25p settings/problems discussion

P. Harrill said:
OTHER PTOOL SETTINGS: Isaac has reported that he's not checking anything except the 24pN and "C" settings. No "3rd party battery", no MJPEG, etc. Svart, have you tested while unchecking settings like battery, MJPEG, etc.? Isaac asked you this and I’ve not seen an answer. This could be an issue.
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I posted my test results earlier in this thread and I think they should be pretty clear that I found that ONLY enabling the Native 24p patch by itself was enough to elicit the failures. I didn't have to change anything else.

In short, I open Ptool, click native 24p (and version check) and load the firmware into the camera. I point it at the star chart or at the grass in my yard and within a few seconds I get the card speed error. I don't change the bitrates or anything else.
 
I was under the impression that Vitaliy asked us to do this. Expecting him to test everything himself is unreasonable.

If Panasonic designed the camera to use 1080 60i/24p from the ground up, then why is the native 24p code in there? I suspect that they decided somewhere during the development of the firmware that it wasn't necessary and just didn't finish it.

Chris
 
cbrandin said:
I was under the impression that Vitaliy asked us to do this. Expecting him to test everything himself is unreasonable.

If Panasonic designed the camera to use 1080 60i/24p from the ground up, then why is the native 24p code in there? I suspect that they decided somewhere during the development of the firmware that it wasn't necessary and just didn't finish it.

Chris
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Vitaliy has never said how he got the native 24p working. I'm fairly certain he mentioned that the bitsteam from the sensor is turned into 24p which is then fed into the interlacing routine.

It is MY theory that he simply placed "jumps" around the interlacing routine to skip it. This would support the fact that we are seeing strange errors in the Native 24p since we really don't know what the interlacing routine does, nor do we really know what the 24p bitstream really looks like. We have to remember that these are hacks and because they are hacks, we may never know how the camera really interprets the changes to it's firmware.
 
cbrandin said:
Ultimately what happens is that the "rogue frames" effectively temporarily double the data rate. Get two or three GOP's with rogue frames in a row and you'll get an error no matter what else you set other parameters to. It's just a matter of time.

If you can tolerate the occasional inevitable error - go for it.
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The rogue frame malfunction is what I've seen in my examination of 24p videos as well. The mean bitrate of these streams is well within the capabilities of Class 6 and Class 10 SD cards - and I have successfully tested numerous 24p videos on both Transend and Sandisk cards.

Vitaliy has examined examples of rogue frames and found that they consist of normal I or P frames with a large amount of garbage data appended to them. That explains why they can occur sporatically without disrupting playback (so long as the brief increase in bitrate isn't too extreme). That also makes it clear that the real problem is that the AVCHD encoder is occasionally malfunctioning due to an internal bug, rather than exceeding its data processing limits due to patch parameters that are too extreme.
 
and if that's the case, then not even a complete re-write of the firmware would get 24P working error free under every possible condition. And it may also explain why Panny chose to implement 24P in the GH1 in this manner instead of the way 24P is implemented with the 5D2, 7D, 550D (which is clearly superior).
 
I still think that there is something the interlacing routine does to the 24p stream that we aren't aware of, or that the hack itself introduces a bug into the system somehow. It's very hard to swallow that pana, being one of the founders of AVCHD, would have implemented this badly. I think they wrote it with the intention of 24p/60i being the only form of 24p output from the beginning. I don't think they expected anyone that purchased this camera to really know or care about native 24p output.
 
And to think that the HPX170 and the HVX200, over $6000.00 cameras and P2, don't have 1080p24 Native. I wonder why? GH1 owners should feel lucky that an $800.00 camera is at least showing signs that a crappy implementation of AVCHD is getting a chance to be experimented on with 24p Native. The fact is that there is a choice, if it is not working for somebody go back to over 60i. That easy. The "findings" have been exposed, lets just wait for Vitaliy and see what he can do about it.
 
Poor Svart... every time you mention your problem the same points get rehashed, "It's clearly your card, have you tried a class 10? You really should." "I refuse to because that simply ignores/masks the problem." "Well, 24P works for me." "Yes, because you have a class 10 that masks the problem." "Clearly the problem is with your card. Try a class 10." "Arghgh!!" :kali::Drogar-KnockedOut(D

I think maybe you should just post a mile long explanation of the problem in your forum signature. :D
 
ha!

I have 2 class 10 cards!

They're just not the super-deluxe-made-by-Santa-claus-and-unicorns-but-priced-out-of-my-reach-magical-nuclear-bomb-proof-cures-cancer Sandisk card that everybody is buying just so they can run Native 24p.

The hard part isn't rehashing the same processes and explaining the same things to folks, it's pointing them to the thread that already discusses these things and already comes to the conclusion that the current thread is attempting to do.. Again. And then nobody reads it!

:cheesy:
 
The fact is that AVCHD is supposed to perform at a max of 24 Mbps. By that standard even the B settings are making it work over this limit. So if the camera starts acting weird with high settings nobody should be surprised at all. The fact that many people are shooting with C settings and higher is a miracle by itself. And again to have 1080p24 Native at all in this low end cam is another miracle.
 
I think the point here is not to complain or be surprised that it's not working perfectly, but to identify the problem in order to have the best chances of fixing it. If Svart just gave up and bought a 30MB/s Sandisk card the problem would never even be identified in the first place. I think people have a tendency to automatically assume that someone pointing out an error is complaining, when in fact they are just trying to be helpful, and I doubt Svart is expecting a fix but instead is helping to facilitate some information gathering that might be helpful to getting a fix. That's how I see it, anyways. :costumed-smiley-047
 
John Caballero said:
The fact is that AVCHD is supposed to perform at a max of 24 Mbps. By that standard even the B settings are making it work over this limit. So if the camera starts acting weird with high settings nobody should be surprised at all. The fact that many people are shooting with C settings and higher is a miracle by itself. And again to have 1080p24 Native at all in this low end cam is another miracle.
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thank you john...that thought had occurred to me lately, but i never said anything...most poeple would be happy with solid 24Mbs, but the hack allows waaaay more, and we just have to roll with some errors while this hack takes form. all the complaining will probably go away soon. btw, no errors sofar w/C settings in 3.36Ptool, w/Sandisk "VideoHD" 8GB Class 6. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
Since starting (and following) this thread, it is sounding like native 24p is worth a try as long as I don't mount to a tripod and shoot a static scene. Even then, I might find some irregularities, but it's probably worth a shot. I'm not shooting anything really serious; just family stuff. I've found the hack with C settings alone makes such a difference, even running 1080 w/24p in 60i wrapper, but I really do not want to miss out on even better IQ that might be possible. So, two simple questions:

1. How could I further improve IQ (while staying away from native 24P)? Again, I've only tried the standard C settings so far. I honestly do not understand a lot of the settings in the hack, even after reading several of the guides here. (I have a Transcend Class 10 card)

2. Expanding on that, and this could show my ignorance in this space, but is it possible to shoot 720 with 24p in a 60i wrapper, and if so, would there be any advantage to that (assuming I don't care about the lower resolution of 720)? For example, would it allow me to push the bitrate much higher?
 
Ya... I'm using a 30mb/s card and get the card speed write error on static shots only, so it's obviously not going to be fixed with a 30mb/s sandisk extreme III card. I do however only get the error when it's really bright out. Never in lowlight.... I still love my gh1, and will toy with flipping back to the 60i... but i freaking hate unwrapping the 24p.... it's such a waste of time.

I'd rather drop everything onto a 24p timeline, but then second sound doesnt sync right.... there will be a fix eventually :)
 
c.cook88 said:
but i freaking hate unwrapping the 24p.... it's such a waste of time.
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well not only that, but after using cineform for a couple years now, i simply don't trust it to handle pulldown removal perfectly. there have been far too many visually documented screw-ups.
 
Svart said:
ha!
...
The hard part isn't rehashing the same processes and explaining the same things to folks, it's pointing them to the thread that already discusses these things and already comes to the conclusion that the current thread is attempting to do.. Again. And then nobody reads it!

:cheesy:
Click to expand...
Hey now... I so opened the link in a new tab. Also, as you mentioned earlier about repeated questions: that's why I bookmark all the good threads I find now. I'm a noob, but I'm here to learn, and I'm trying to do that without pissing people off, hah.

A lot of very good points have been made in this thread. However, I think a good question that would dictate if people go for 24p native or not with the Gh1 is "Does the footage look as good as or better than just shooting the 60i and doing pulldown?"

Personally, I am late to every party, and so I haven't patched yet. 24p would be amazing, but if there's a quality loss then it isn't worth it to me (especially if people are having issues). However, even with issues: if there is a quality gain then I'd risk it. I've seen several tests of the 720 high rate settings scaled up to 1080 too, but that's a whole different topic.
 
Any news on the 24pN front? The static scenes of death are making me want to revert back to 1080i..... oh how I hate transcoding haha

Anyone think the ptools 3.40 will be purely asthetic? Or if improvements will be made to the actual firmware?

Last thing.... is this the best post to keep updated on the 24pN static issue?? ANyone know of any others? I've searched, and this seems to be the best one...
 
Looks like v3.40 is mostly aesthetic. I am happy that Ptools is looking more professional, but wish there was some news on either 24N, AGC getting disabled, or ext. monitoring.
 
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