NanoFlash, Ninja or the AJA Ki Pro MINI?

GRENCH said:
Great point mcgeedigital. I was taking for granted that the Nano had XLR inputs. I am an audio guy 1st and for most so that is a shocker for me. I'm just having a problem thinking up a proper on camera mounting solution for the AJA due to it's size and build. I need to have this thing and my AF-100 as 1 unit.
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I saw photos somewhere with the Ki Pro Mini on 15mm rod mounts with an AB battery on it. That is what I am shooting for.

My main reason for wanting XLR inputs is top also use the Ki Pro Mini as an HD DDR to record the main feed in HD live switched events.
 
David S. said:
Which QuickTime codecs will the Nano record to? QT, again, is a container for codecs. It would be great to identify which codecs.

thanks
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The Nano uses the module from Sony's $30,000 PDW-700, which is a proprietary solid state XDCAM 4.2.2 module, with some optimized code to let it run faster. This module contains two of Sony's sixth generation MPEG-2 encoder and decoder chips. (According to convergent design)

The regular XDCAM EX NLE settings don't handle it. On a PC you have to install a plug in to handle it. I imagine its the same on a Mac.

I'd also like to point out that the Nano records uncompressed sound.
 
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AJA_KiProMINI.jpg
 
David S. said:
Which QuickTime codecs will the Nano record to? QT, again, is a container for codecs. It would be great to identify which codecs.
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The Nano is only an MPEG-2 device. The only codec it offers is MPEG-2, but you can change various things about the MPEG-2 (intraframe, long-GoP, 4:2:0 or 4:2:2, and the bitrate from 18 to 280) and you can select the file format (Sony-compatible XDCAM-style Op-1A MXF, or Quicktime .MOV).
 
Postmaster said:
What´s the reason to have XLR inputs on the recorder, when you have them on the camera you use with the recorder?
Do I miss something?
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Not every camera records sound. And even those who do, don't necessarily do a good job of it. It's possible the connectors and pre-amps on the Ki Pro may be substantially superior to, for example, the 1/8" minijack on a DSLR.
 
Postmaster said:
What´s the reason to have XLR inputs on the recorder, when you have them on the camera you use with the recorder?
Do I miss something?

Frank
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For me it's a huge deal. If I buy an external unit I would also want to be able to use it with other cameras that might not have balanced uncompressed audio recording capabilities.


*Sorry Postmaster. I didn't see that Barry already covered it.
 
Barry_Green said:
Not every camera records sound. And even those who do, don't necessarily do a good job of it. It's possible the connectors and pre-amps on the Ki Pro may be substantially superior to, for example, the 1/8" minijack on a DSLR.
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Oh, I thought we are talking only AF100.

I usually have a field mixer between mic and camera, so I go line in and skip the camera preamps.

Frank
 
Bandido said:
Panasonic AG-HPG20 msrp is $5,560, the average street price is $4,520. CD Nanoflash msrp is $2,995, AJA Ki pro mini msrp is $1,995 and the Atomos Ninja msrp is $995
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The price of the Ninja is tempting but the lack of SDI isn't. I'm thinking about getting the AJA Ki Pro mini which costs 2033 euro (ex VAT) here in Europe (= $2904). Advantage of the Nanoflash is the timecode on SDI, does the AJA support timecode as well? Also I know this is not supposed to be an AF100 thread but is it possible to record to both SDHC cards and SDI output at the same time? So if something goes wrong within the external recorder, at least there are still the SDHC cards?
 
RieniO said:
The price of the Ninja is tempting but the lack of SDI isn't. I'm thinking about getting the AJA Ki Pro mini which costs 2033 euro (ex VAT) here in Europe (= $2904). Advantage of the Nanoflash is the timecode on SDI, does the AJA support timecode as well? Also I know this is not supposed to be an AF100 thread but is it possible to record to both SDHC cards and SDI output at the same time? So if something goes wrong within the external recorder, at least there are still the SDHC cards?
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Yes to everything :)
 
Audio Question for Barry

Audio Question for Barry

I think only Barry can answer this question about audio. I know you can record video to the internal SD cards and through the HD-SDI simultaneously. I'm going to assume that is the case for audio too? I'm hoping that audio is also transferred through SDI to an external recorder at the same time. I hope it's not one or the other.

On a side note about the Pro Mini. Since it does have it's own XLR's, you can record 4 separate channels of audio by also using the AF100 audio inputs.
 
Cool. Too bad the Mini Pro can't record the audio from SDI, while also recording from it's own XLR's to get 4 channels of audio on one media type. At least you can record 2 channels to the SD's. though.

thanks Barry.

Barry_Green said:
Yes, audio is embedded on the HD-SDI and HDMI outputs, whether you're recording or not.
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The Ninja hard disk .... is really for controled environement, inside shooting, good temperature ... Im not a fan of a touch screen for my primary recorder. Have you already tryed touchscreen at 30degree under the sun ? I had and sometime it just dosent work well at all.

If im not happy whit the 24mbs ... i will probably go whit the AJA
But i will make a lot of test before since it will kinda change all my shoulder mounted set-up, batteries, balance .... $$
 
I also use the nano with a EX3 and would consider getting a KI Pro mini as the EX3 out-puts 10 bit but the AF 100 doesn't ... so it seems the NanoFlash and the AF 100 may fit together nicely as both are 8 bit.
 
NanoFlash Unique Advantages

NanoFlash Unique Advantages

Disclaimer: I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for Convergent Design.
This is intended to be a fair presentation of the advantages that our nanoFlash offers.

We feel that the AJA Ki Pro Mini and the nanoFlash can both co-exist in the marketplace.

We welcome the recent competition from AJA.

We congratulate AJA on introducing the Ki Pro Mini at an attractive price.

After careful analysis, we feel that the nanoFlash holds up well to the competition.

We strongly feel that the nanoFlash will remain the premium product, especially when one compares features and media costs.

While the nanoFlash presents a un-unassuming exterior, the technology inside is very advanced.

For example, the nanoFlash only requires a 400x CompactFlash card, for recording up to and including 220 Mbps.
A 600x card is required by the nanoFlash, only if one selects our ultimate quality 280 Mbps bit-rate for recording.

And even lower performance 133x cards may be used for Broadcast Quality and 100 Mbps recordings, for even lower media costs.

The Ki Pro Mini requires a 600x CompactFlash card for 220 Mbps, which is far more expensive.

At B&H using todays prices a 64 GB 600x CompactFlash card costs $524.99 while a 64 GB 400x card is available at $165.85. If you purchase just two cards, the saving is $718.28.

And the nanoFlash achieves Broadcast Quality at 50 Mbps which allows a maximum uninterrupted recording time of 5.3 hours.

Broadcast Quality on the Ki Pro is 145 Mbps or higher and is limited to an uninterrupted recording time of 45 to 57 minutes.

As of this writing, the Ki Pro Mini can not span from one CompactFlash card slot to the next. This is an important feature of the nanoFlash that is used every day.

As the unique advantages and the low media cost of the nanoFlash become more widely known, we expect the sales of the nanoFlash to continue to be strong.

The nanoFlash is ideally suited for use with the soon to be released Panasonic AF100/AF101 and the nano3D is ideal for use with the Panasonic 3DA1 3D camera.

Each of the following points cover features of the nanoFlash that are not available in the Ki Pro Mini.

nanoFlash Advantages / Unique Features
·Most efficient CODEC: Sony XDCAM 422 HD CODEC;
18 to 280 Mbps, I-Frame / Long-GOP
·4:2:2 Broadcast Quality at only 50 Mbps
·Very high quality at lower bit-rates: 100 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP
·Longest Uninterrupted Record Times of any professional recorder
·Best Media Management
oVery Long Uninterrupted Record times (supports spanning of cards)
§14.9 hours @ 18 Mbps (Proxy Mode)
§5.3 Hours, Uninterrupted, at Broadcast Quality (50 Mbps 4:2:2)
§1 Hour at Maximum Quality (280 Mbps 4:2:2)
oLowest-Cost CompactFlash cards: 133X (100 Mbps), 400X (220 Mbps)
o600x speed CompactFlash cards not needed, except for 280 Mbps
oAffordable Nexto Drive (500GB HDD) for field backup
oSupports multiple files for safety
oHot-swap (due in next firmware release)
·Longest Battery Life: 6W Max Power, 5 to 19.5V Range
·Industry Leading Size, Weight (0.85 Pounds, 385 grams), and Power
·Completely Silent - No Fans
·Full Support For PSF, Converts PSF to Progressive for recording, Progressive to PSF for playback
·Comprehensive Support for various frame rates including True 24p, True 30p and True 60i.
·E to E Direct Support
·3:2 Pulldown Removal
Example: 1080p24 over 60i -> 1080p24, for both SDI and HDMI
·Time Lapse: one frame/second up to one frame/day
·Pre-Record Buffer (up to 7 seconds) – Great for wildlife shoots
·Over/Under Crank (Variable Frame Rate) with all cameras: 1080p and 720p
·Universal NLE Support: MXF/MOV/MPG files, no transcode, Play directly off CF card
·MPG file format speeds DVD and Blu-Ray creation; Renders Blu-Ray files in real-time
·Most flexible recorder – numerous trigger options, internal/external Timecode
·Comprehensive software tools / plugins for viewing / converting files
oMOV ↔MXF Converters, XDCAM Viewer, Calibrated Software Decoder
oCineform support coming soon, currently in beta and working well
·Simplest Mounting: Built-In Tripod Mount (1/4”-20)
·History of continuous upgrades:
oSix Major Firmware Updates since Aug 2009
oNext Release to include: Canon MXF support, Record Trigger Delay,
Hot Swap, Image Flip/Flop
·Field Proven in mission critical applications
oOver 2300 units in the field
oExtreme environments – desert, humid jungles, balloons @ 100K feet,
underwater, arctic cold, race-cars, helicopters, jets, acrobatic planes,
(-30 to 70 C operating range)
·Upgradeable to 3D, 3D upgrade available now
·24/7 phone support – knowledgeable support when you need it
·Available today – In-Stock

The above list was created with the publicly available information on the Ki Pro Mini.
I will be happy to post updates as appropriate.
 
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Dear Friends,

In response to some audio questions.

Our initial HD/SD recorder had XLR inputs and Outputs.

In order to reduce the size down drastically, and to lower the power requirements substantially, we removed XLR inputs and outputs from the nanoFlash.

Many of our nanoFlash users like to record redundantly. This is a great advantage of using an external recorder such as a nanoFlash.

Thus, with the nanoFlash, one uses the XLR inputs and Phantom Power of the camera. The camera then processes the audio and sends it over the HD-SDI cable with the video to the nanoFlash.

Please note that this has many advantages and one disadvantage.

Advantage: The audio is input into the Camera's XLR inputs, the audio level meters in the viewfinder work, and the audio gain controls, in-camera, are readily available.

Advantage: The audio is recorded in-camera and reduntantly in the external recorder.

Advantage: The external audio recorder can draw signifcantly less power.

Disadvantage: If the audio circuits of the camera are noisy, then the quality of the audio can suffer.

If one wants higher quality, if the external recorder has great audio circuits with 24-Bit / 48K support, then one can use the analog audio inputs of the external recorder.

Please note that while the Ki Pro Mini has XLR audio inputs, it does not have XLR audio outputs, thus the audio signal would not normally be feed back into the camera, thus preventing the redundant recording in-camera from having audio, and thus preventing the user from seeing the audio levels in the viewfinder.

The Ki Pro Mini draws 16 to 18 watts, and the nanoFlash draws approximately 5.6 watts and accepts 5 to 19.5 Volts DC.

If one is using a mixer, then one can take the "Tape Out" of the mixer, which is typically on a 1/8" / 3.5mm mini-plug, and plug it directly into the nanoFlash's stereo analog audio input.

The nanoFlashes audio input is via a single 3.5mm mini-jack, and supports one balanced mic or line input, or two un-balanced mic or line level inputs. Audio is processed as 24-Bit / 48K and yields high quality audio.

Most of our nanoFlash users plug their XLR sources into their camera and send audio over HD-SDI to the nanoFlash. But, they like the ability to have analog audio input available at times.

The HD-SDI embedded audio option supports up to 8 channels, all 24-bit / 48K audio.

Dan M. Keaton
Director of Sales and Marketing
Convergent Design
 
All good points, and in my breakdown (in another thread) I say that the Nano still has a competitive position in the marketplace.

But, Dan, you know we gotta ask -- it's a grand more than the Ki Pro Mini, it's only 8-bit, and it's using a comparatively ancient codec. When can we expect to see a counterpunch from Convergent -- a 10-bit h.264 version at $1995 or less?

The Nano is definitely a viable product for today, but when the Ninja (and I have my doubts about that, by the way) is offering a modern codec at $995, it makes it harder to justify the 3x higher price of the Nano. Not for me; if I had to buy one of them I'd definitly go for either the Ki Pro or the Nano, and the Nano's portability and easy power options make it probably the leading contender for me, but -- even so, I gotta kinda grit my teeth at the idea that it's $3k when the Ki Pro is $2K and the Ninja is $1k, so ... it feels like I'm paying more, for yesterday's tech, and that surely you're going to respond with a today's-tech product soon, right?
 
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