NAB - What's your camera wishlist?

[dustylense]

To me, to Jannardize is to announce an announcement. Example:

On March 26, we're going to announce something really special!

​

At this point, you are right on the line. It's okay every once in a while. And not only Jannard does it. However, to wholly Jannardize, after you announce the announcement, but before you make the announcement, make a comment every few days about how excited you are about the announcement. For example:

Monday: I'm so excited, I can barely hold it in!
Tuesday: Y'all are really gonna love this!
Wednesday: Squeeeeee!

​

Of course, he or you or whoever can say whatever you want . . . and I have every right to find it totally irritating
To paraphrase Thumper's mom, If you don't have something specific to say, don't say anything at all.

+1.. Long ago I had lunch with him with my girlfriends family that knew him. This was the Oakley days only. The guy is weird. But, i'm not gonna past human judgement on him. Whether you like him or not or his ways, at least appreciate what he has done. He has and ego bigger than all of us can toss, but can you name another US company that makes high end cinema cameras at that price? In fact, start naming any US company that makes a simple quality point n shoot.
I think Thumpers mom would also say "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". It's easy to dislike. But it's easier on yourself you like one another.

 

[Barry_Green]

You state that Canon is always late or last in the race. I'm starting to think it's actually the other way around. Sure, the F3, FS100, AF100 all hit the scene before the C300. But lets put them on a table and line them up.

Canon always is last, and yes F3, FS100, and AF100 all hit first. To line them up: the Canon has the best sensor of all of them, and the weakest back end of any of them, and costs way more than any of them -- the C300 costs about 4x as much as an AF100, 3x as much as an FS100, and about $3,000 more than an F3, which does 10-bit, dual-link, 4:4:4, whereas the Canon is 8-bit throughout, utilizing a leftover image processor from the HFS10 series. Which is about typical for Canon.

I think Canon got the sensor exactly right. It's just everything else they got wrong. Most importantly, the lens mount. Even with all that Canon screwed up on the C300, I was almost (almost) ready to buy one, in fact I still have a deposit down on one at Abel. But the more I look at it, the more I think ... nah. It's a generation away from being what it could really be.

If Sony soon announces a s35 cam that is internal codec ready in the size or form factor of the C300, which camera set the trend or the future progress? Look out for the Sony F4 and the AF200. If they even slightly mimic the C300 is body size and spec, I would say Canon is first to the game.

But if Sony or Panasonic did that, it'd cost 1/2 to 1/3 what the Canon does. Which (to me) leaves the Canon C300 as an irrelevant also-ran, at least among the individual owner crowd. Hollywood rentals who are looking for a DSLR alternative, yes, the C300 will do well there. But here on these boards, it's not gotten much traction, whereas a Sony or Panasonic alternative that costs 1/2 to 1/3, well, that'd be the real deal. And then there's the form factor - the C300's form factor is sort of DSLR+. It's not a full-fledged all-in-one design. I sincerely doubt Panasonic would follow that route. Sony might, what with the oddball DSLR+ design of the FS100, but ... well, we'll see.

I'm still looking forward to a Canon C100, if they produce such a thing, and especially with a (hopefully 10-bit) Digic DV IV, which would hopefully bring the back end up to keep the promises that the front end is making.

I still love my AF100 though. But I lust for that C300.

I was briefly in that same camp, but ... I fell out of lust. Not enough for 5x the price. A $5k C100 with that same sensor, well, call me lusty, but at the C300's $16k, naw.

 

[Barry_Green]

Maybe you'll get it -- or something better -- in the AF100's successor, for $6,000 or so. You just won't have an S35 sensor.

Not worried about the S35 size, I'd be plenty fine with the m43 size, as it's close enough to cinema film to not make a difference, and all my existing lenses would work fine with it. I just really like the alias-free 4:4:4 potential of the way Canon engineered their sensor.

 

[dustylense]

Canon always is last, and yes F3, FS100, and AF100 all hit first. To line them up: the Canon has the best sensor of all of them, and the weakest back end of any of them, and costs way more than any of them -- the C300 costs about 4x as much as an AF100, 3x as much as an FS100, and about $3,000 more than an F3, which does 10-bit, dual-link, 4:4:4, whereas the Canon is 8-bit throughout, utilizing a leftover image processor from the HFS10 series. Which is about typical for Canon.

I think Canon got the sensor exactly right. It's just everything else they got wrong. Most importantly, the lens mount. Even with all that Canon screwed up on the C300, I was almost (almost) ready to buy one, in fact I still have a deposit down on one at Abel. But the more I look at it, the more I think ... nah. It's a generation away from being what it could really be.


But if Sony or Panasonic did that, it'd cost 1/2 to 1/3 what the Canon does. Which (to me) leaves the Canon C300 as an irrelevant also-ran, at least among the individual owner crowd. Hollywood rentals who are looking for a DSLR alternative, yes, the C300 will do well there. But here on these boards, it's not gotten much traction, whereas a Sony or Panasonic alternative that costs 1/2 to 1/3, well, that'd be the real deal. And then there's the form factor - the C300's form factor is sort of DSLR+. It's not a full-fledged all-in-one design. I sincerely doubt Panasonic would follow that route. Sony might, what with the oddball DSLR+ design of the FS100, but ... well, we'll see.

I'm still looking forward to a Canon C100, if they produce such a thing, and especially with a (hopefully 10-bit) Digic DV IV, which would hopefully bring the back end up to keep the promises that the front end is making.


I was briefly in that same camp, but ... I fell out of lust. Not enough for 5x the price. A $5k C100 with that same sensor, well, call me lusty, but at the C300's $16k, naw.

While I agree with you on many points (you do have vastly more knowledge in the area than I ever could) I still question not to disagree or prove wrong or right. Let's forget price for a moment and look at not just technology but package design. Will you disagree with me that the C300 is a unique body, and thus will be imitated by future designs from other companies? I relate this to a very popular item called the Iphone. Look at how that completely reshaped the cell phone PDA. But at first, a blackberry could do so much more. But it was it's design that took us by storm. And when it was released it was quite pricey (trying to leave $'s out of this!). But one cannot argue that it completely changed the future of what a cell phone PDA was and is to be. Apple was dead last to the market on cell phones, but set the trend for the future.
Back to price. Yep, it's expensive. Just like that Iphone v1. It's got subject-able issues like the whole 8 bit thing (many can argue that for days). But when I look at the F3 and it's form next to the C300, it's no contest. In fact, was it not the F3 that had a $3000 upgrade for 10bit out which still needs another expensive device to operate its function? But after the C300 landed that upgrade became free? Is that being nice, or keeping up? What will the next Sony and panny large chip camera "look" like? I'll put $20 on it that is shape shifts more into a C300 design. *I actually give credit to RED Epic for the design of the C300 though* But their history is much shorter than the big three.
I suppose my point is that canon came last, but is directing the future of what Sony and Panny will do and respond with. So in essence, who is really first? It's in Sony and Panny's court now. In the end, IT'S GREAT TO LIKE CAMERAS RIGHT NOW !!!!!!
Thanks Barry! Tell us what you know about Panny!!!! J/K, or am I?

 

[Tzedekh]

Not worried about the S35 size, I'd be plenty fine with the m43 size, as it's close enough to cinema film to not make a difference, and all my existing lenses would work fine with it. I just really like the alias-free 4:4:4 potential of the way Canon engineered their sensor.

Yes, I like how Canon gets 4:4:4. Panasonic could do something similar with its sensor. But, at some point, to get 4:4:4 4K (or, more likely, QuadHD) out of a m4/3 sensor Panasonic would need to put 33 MP on it. It might be possible to compensate somewhat for smaller pixels with backside illumination, but I've never seen it used with larger sensors.

 

[dustylense]

Not worried about the S35 size, I'd be plenty fine with the m43 size, as it's close enough to cinema film to not make a difference, and all my existing lenses would work fine with it. I just really like the alias-free 4:4:4 potential of the way Canon engineered their sensor.

I so agree with the m4/3s. It's a fine balance between shooting 2/3's and s35. Lets just see a nice pro quality 12-35 2.8 lens that is rumored!!!!! With hard stops and a long focus throw! That would breathe new life into my AF100 overnight.

 

[keylight]

I'll be at NAB. If you have questions for specific companies, I'll try to ask some of them. Post questions here: Going to NAB - Questions you want me to ask?

Anyone else going to be there? I expect at least a few people on this site will be going.

 

[Barry_Green]

Will you disagree with me that the C300 is a unique body, and thus will be imitated by future designs from other companies?

I do agree that it is somewhat unique, and that the very uniqueness of it is part of its appeal and part of its lack of appeal, depending on the customer. I know that some folks were ga-ga over the design, because it was the "DSLR+" they were hoping for. But as an "A" camera, I find it lacking. It's kind of like the Aaton A-minima in that way; when that was first introduced there were many of us saying "finally, someone gets it, a small compact S16 body that I can shoot everything with" and there were other guys saying "um, that ain't no "A" camera." And, as we've seen it play out, the A-minima is certainly not an A camera, it's a specialist tool.

I think of the C300 as the DSLR replacement for Hollywood shows who would have previously used a DSLR. But I don't really see its design as being "the" future of cameras, as it's too limited and the erector-set nature of these "modular" cameras is going to get pretty tedious after a while.

I relate this to a very popular item called the Iphone. Look at how that completely reshaped the cell phone PDA. But at first, a blackberry could do so much more. But it was it's design that took us by storm. And when it was released it was quite pricey (trying to leave $'s out of this!). But one cannot argue that it completely changed the future of what a cell phone PDA was and is to be. Apple was dead last to the market on cell phones, but set the trend for the future.

Well, you make excellent points here. Is it possible that the C300 will be to cine cameras, what the iPhone was to PDA's? Maybe. I doubt it, but that's because I never really enjoyed the whole DSLR thing in the first place, so I don't see a move towards a more-DSLR type of body as a plus. But I'm not making a prediction based on that, because I recognize that's personal preference and not empirical evidence.

But when I look at the F3 and it's form next to the C300, it's no contest.

The F3 has been roundly criticized for its form, as it's too big and clunky to be a handheld and it's not designed like a studio camera. The C300 certainly looks sleek and sexy next to it, but -- well, okay, let's put it this way -- how much of that is a factor in a buying decision? Apple can make it "cool" to be seen with an iPhone, but is there actually, truly, a "cool" factor in which cinema camera you use? I don't think the same will apply... but I do agree that the F3 could do with a better-engineered body, starting with a viewfinder up front.

In fact, was it not the F3 that had a $3000 upgrade for 10bit out which still needs another expensive device to operate its function?

No, it was always 10-bit out. The upgrade was to get a logarithmic curve.

But after the C300 landed that upgrade became free? Is that being nice, or keeping up?

I don't think it's either, I think it's acknowledging that they grossly, grossly overpriced the S-log option, and when a company is reeling as badly as Sony is and hemorrhaging money like they are, they can't afford to watch product go unsold. Plus, if the birdies who are cheeping around me are to be believed, there's a pretty good prospect of us seeing exactly why they felt they had to give away S-log this close to NAB. But I don't think the C300 is the reason why.

I know several people who own F3's. I don't know any who own C300's. Part of that is because it's been out longer, of course, but the other part is -- when an owner/op evaluates them, I think the preponderance of value is on the F3's side. It makes a better owner/operator camera. Whereas the C300 has been marketed to Hollywood as a substitute for the DSLR, as a rental item. Which all makes sense. I don't think the F3 feels threatened by the C300, although I guess I should let F3 owners answer that for themselves...

What will the next Sony and panny large chip camera "look" like? I'll put $20 on it that is shape shifts more into a C300 design.

Oh, well, your $20 to wager I guess, but I certainly hope not! I was intrigued enough by the C300 to put down a deposit, but the more I spend time looking at it and seeing how it all works together, the more I hope that they don't go with some lego design with pieces/parts all over the place. But, again, that's personal preference.

*I actually give credit to RED Epic for the design of the C300 though* But their history is much shorter than the big three.

I don't think Canon spent too much time looking at the Epic, I think they looked at the 5D and said "this is what people are using, how can we get them something better?" It may have been Epic-inspired, but to me it looks more like a DSLR+ rather than an alternative Epic.

I suppose my point is that canon came last, but is directing the future of what Sony and Panny will do and respond with. So in essence, who is really first? It's in Sony and Panny's court now.

And JVC, they've still got a card to play (their large-sensor 4K camera). And I'm still hoping Arri will announce a low-budget Alexa that will throw everyone for a loop. Or a wildcard, like the Digital Bolex -- what else is out there that we don't even know about yet? And to stoke further rumors, or invent some, do you think Red looked at the DBolex's ridiculously successful Kickstarter campaign, and then looked back at the millions of dollars of R&D they did on the S16 Scarlet, and maybe now they're thinking ... well, hmmm, what if we just did this and this, and forgot all that stuff, maybe... ? I can't believe that they'd just let all that R&D go to waste, when obviously there's some market for a 3K-for-$3K or 2K-for-$2.5k product... tantalizing prospect, right?

Tell us what you know about Panny!!!! J/K, or am I?

Not a thing. Sometimes I get told stuff a little early as part of a focus group or something, but if there's any new product coming this time, they didn't have me participate in it so I don't know what they will do. Like I said before though, I think it's way too early for them to be reacting yet, the AF100's still fairly brand new, barely over a year old, and it's far and away the least-expensive digicine camcorder and it's got lots of competitive advantages over its nearest-price competition, so I really wouldn't expect anything revolutionary from them anytime soon.

But I sure would like them to buy that sensor off Canon, stuff it in an AF200 and stick the 10-bit AVC-Intra guts of an HPX250 in it...

 

[dustylense]

I do agree that it is somewhat unique, and that the very uniqueness of it is part of its appeal and part of its lack of appeal, depending on the customer. I know that some folks were ga-ga over the design, because it was the "DSLR+" they were hoping for. But as an "A" camera, I find it lacking. It's kind of like the Aaton A-minima in that way; when that was first introduced there were many of us saying "finally, someone gets it, a small compact S16 body that I can shoot everything with" and there were other guys saying "um, that ain't no "A" camera." And, as we've seen it play out, the A-minima is certainly not an A camera, it's a specialist tool.

I think of the C300 as the DSLR replacement for Hollywood shows who would have previously used a DSLR. But I don't really see its design as being "the" future of cameras, as it's too limited and the erector-set nature of these "modular" cameras is going to get pretty tedious after a while.


Well, you make excellent points here. Is it possible that the C300 will be to cine cameras, what the iPhone was to PDA's? Maybe. I doubt it, but that's because I never really enjoyed the whole DSLR thing in the first place, so I don't see a move towards a more-DSLR type of body as a plus. But I'm not making a prediction based on that, because I recognize that's personal preference and not empirical evidence.


The F3 has been roundly criticized for its form, as it's too big and clunky to be a handheld and it's not designed like a studio camera. The C300 certainly looks sleek and sexy next to it, but -- well, okay, let's put it this way -- how much of that is a factor in a buying decision? Apple can make it "cool" to be seen with an iPhone, but is there actually, truly, a "cool" factor in which cinema camera you use? I don't think the same will apply... but I do agree that the F3 could do with a better-engineered body, starting with a viewfinder up front.


No, it was always 10-bit out. The upgrade was to get a logarithmic curve.


I don't think it's either, I think it's acknowledging that they grossly, grossly overpriced the S-log option, and when a company is reeling as badly as Sony is and hemorrhaging money like they are, they can't afford to watch product go unsold. Plus, if the birdies who are cheeping around me are to be believed, there's a pretty good prospect of us seeing exactly why they felt they had to give away S-log this close to NAB. But I don't think the C300 is the reason why.

I know several people who own F3's. I don't know any who own C300's. Part of that is because it's been out longer, of course, but the other part is -- when an owner/op evaluates them, I think the preponderance of value is on the F3's side. It makes a better owner/operator camera. Whereas the C300 has been marketed to Hollywood as a substitute for the DSLR, as a rental item. Which all makes sense. I don't think the F3 feels threatened by the C300, although I guess I should let F3 owners answer that for themselves...


Oh, well, your $20 to wager I guess, but I certainly hope not! I was intrigued enough by the C300 to put down a deposit, but the more I spend time looking at it and seeing how it all works together, the more I hope that they don't go with some lego design with pieces/parts all over the place. But, again, that's personal preference.


I don't think Canon spent too much time looking at the Epic, I think they looked at the 5D and said "this is what people are using, how can we get them something better?" It may have been Epic-inspired, but to me it looks more like a DSLR+ rather than an alternative Epic.


And JVC, they've still got a card to play (their large-sensor 4K camera). And I'm still hoping Arri will announce a low-budget Alexa that will throw everyone for a loop. Or a wildcard, like the Digital Bolex -- what else is out there that we don't even know about yet? And to stoke further rumors, or invent some, do you think Red looked at the DBolex's ridiculously successful Kickstarter campaign, and then looked back at the millions of dollars of R&D they did on the S16 Scarlet, and maybe now they're thinking ... well, hmmm, what if we just did this and this, and forgot all that stuff, maybe... ? I can't believe that they'd just let all that R&D go to waste, when obviously there's some market for a 3K-for-$3K or 2K-for-$2.5k product... tantalizing prospect, right?


Not a thing. Sometimes I get told stuff a little early as part of a focus group or something, but if there's any new product coming this time, they didn't have me participate in it so I don't know what they will do. Like I said before though, I think it's way too early for them to be reacting yet, the AF100's still fairly brand new, barely over a year old, and it's far and away the least-expensive digicine camcorder and it's got lots of competitive advantages over its nearest-price competition, so I really wouldn't expect anything revolutionary from them anytime soon.

But I sure would like them to buy that sensor off Canon, stuff it in an AF200 and stick the 10-bit AVC-Intra guts of an HPX250 in it...

Thanks Barry, Nice to see the other side of the coin in that discussion. There are always two sides to every coin. However, i still predict design changes to Sony and Panny. Maybe not as drastic as the C300, but in it's direction. You can always build around a body to get traditional feeling with rigging.

Concerning the RED Bolex paradigm, I could give a rats behind about RED. It's a nice camera, but the attitudes behind it, both from the company and lot's of users, can jump off a bridge. Sorry Red guys. You just need to learn "different strokes for different folks". In the last few days I've seen more interesting work from RED's hated 5dFF users than most of the scarlet material shared. Maybe they are too busy figuring out their workflows or ran out of HD space.....However, I would have bought the fixed 2/3s Scarlet at a price up to $6-7000.

 

[kabtv]

But I sure would like them to buy that sensor off Canon, stuff it in an AF200 and stick the 10-bit AVC-Intra guts of an HPX250 in it...

i don't know if it's doable but: sensor off canon stuff in an HPX250 and stick an 10-bit AVC-ULTRA 1080 60p.

 

[Bassman2003]

I really like the way Barry is separating camera usefulness into Owner/Operator and Rental Houses. This is a big distinction and I think it is important for the camera makers to know and design around the difference. In my view, the Owner/Operator segment is ever growing with budgets shrinking and shrinking. Imho, the C300 is priced outside of the normal O/O budget as the camera is specific to its use. I too was interested in the 2/3" Scarlet and this looks to be a large market if a company can get the price down into the 3k-6k range and not have the thing look like a science project. I hope NAB has some surprises.

 

[thabo]

Panny GH3

Sill has firmware that can be hacked with ptools
Give us a proper was to focus - hell my little panny tm700 has that blue peaking thing, and
with better ergonomics -simply make the right grip an inch or so bigger like it is on the 7D.
Native 1080p 60.
A simple way to choose what mode you're in - why three different icon, HBR, 24p and variable ..... god this is confusing.

Ok, so perhaps this is a critique of the GH2 but it shoots such great video when hacked I think a few tweaks and it'd be the perfect DSLR.

 

[Bassman2003]

If you mention the GH3, then please give a way to un-bake the contrasty look!

 

[manakiin]

GH2 - a few tweaks and it'd be the perfect DSLR.

Yeah, starting with a mirror.

 

[fannyslacks]

my biggest thing would be an inexpensive dslr that has gotten jello wobble under control.

 

[GioCanales]

I'd like a cinema camera from Nikon, (apparently they have no products to protect), the D4 size is perfect for me, 8.6 MP full frame sensor (I like to shoot wide), XLR audio inputs, 4:2:2 10 bit, frame rates: from 2 to 60 adjustable. That's all.
C'mon Nikon, I know you could do this right now, What's holding you? maybe Sony?... you have nothing to loose, but billions to earn, don't let Canon eat all the cake, just show a "Mockup" behind a glass at NAB, people will get crazy for you, thrust me on this one.

 

[snowleopard]

I agree. If anyone could pull this off, it would be Nikon.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I promise I'll try to come back to DVXuser to talk about the new cameras as they are released, but if not then you'll certainly be able to learn all about them on our AbelCine blog, Cine Technica. To those who are critical, let me note that this thread topic is NAB Camera Wishlist and I did not start it. I think I am participating and stoking the conversation more than trying to lead it in any way. Sorry if I irritate.

 

[Kholi]

I promise I'll try to come back to DVXuser to talk about the new cameras as they are released, but if not then you'll certainly be able to learn all about them on our AbelCine blog, Cine Technica. To those who are critical, let me note that this thread topic is NAB Camera Wishlist and I did not start it. I think I am participating and stoking the conversation more than trying to lead it in any way. Sorry if I irritate.

If anything, your words should be saving people some potentially sad decisions regarding buying cameras.

I know I'd be miffed if I just bought anything expensive with what's coming.

 

[fannyslacks]

If anything, your words should be saving people some potentially sad decisions regarding buying cameras.

I know I'd be miffed if I just bought anything expensive with what's coming.

what does that mean?!!

is there going to be something amazing for cheap?!

rogar-Mark-10(DBG)