NAB announcements and The Future of DSLR film making

E

eco_bach

Well-known member
Hi
ok, first of all I don't want to start a LONG thread of endless speculation, but a question that might be on a lot of minds is the direction of Canon and other DSLR manufactures(Nikon etc) in the wake of all the products being launched by Sony and Red in particular.

Especially with zero hint from Canon on even the next generation of the 5D.

Personally I think the price and form factor will keep the DSLR approach to indie film making alive and kicking for many years to come, enabling many, many filmmakers and creative rebels to realize their visions in an affordable fashion.
 
What did RED announce (in anywhere near the same market) would be my first question?

and concerning the MK3 - I think it will be a make or break camera for Canon because manufacturers have caught on to what people want and the prices of actual video cameras with large sensors will begin to come down as we go through the next 5 years. The Sony FS100 and Panasonic AF100 are just the first 2 in the under $10,000 space and they both come in WAY under that mark.

The 5DMark3 needs to A. Show a significant improvement in aliasing and moire and B. Have a proper implementation of codec. Because if they don't.... at $3000 for the MK3 means the FS100 and AF100 are not that much more money considering what they include for proper video shooting.

I personally believe the CanonMK3 will have the XF 100/300's 4:2:2 codec and I HOPE that DigicV processing will allow for them to implement a proper downscale to get 1080 from the sensor with reduced aliasing and moire.
I do agree that DSLR shooting will continue to be a poular choice for INDIES considering what the lower cost bodies offer in comparison to other cameras.But for it to continue much farther down the road....improvements need to be made, because other options are going to be available that don't have to adhere to the design of being two cameras at once.
 
Despite all these new cameras coming out, Canon don't need to do anything big with the video of the 5dmkIII - It's a Photography tool first and foremost so they'll improve the stills and it will still sell like hotcakes purely because of the success of the 5DmkII (basic marketing - "the 5DmkII was awesome, the mkIII must be even better so fork out another $4000 for it!"). Even if nothing changes, people will still buy the mkIII for video for the same reasons they buy the mkII: it's the only Full Frame camcorder available. Not even the F3 has a sensor that it as big.

Maybe they will choose to beef up the video capabilities of the 5DmkIII to try and compete with the digital cinema cameras, but it's not necessary for them. It might even undermine their own ability to enter the Digital Cinema camera race with a AF100/FS100 competitor. Like it or not, Canon are a business and if they see it as a necessity to improve the video on the DSLR's, then they will. As it is, they have very little competition from elsewhere in a similar price range, and their camera's are wildly popular. Until that changes, I wouldn't expect any major upgrades to video in the DSLR's.
 
deltoidjohn said:
Despite all these new cameras coming out, Canon don't need to do anything big with the video of the 5dmkIII - It's a Photography tool first and foremost so they'll improve the stills and it will still sell like hotcakes purely because of the success of the 5DmkII (basic marketing - "the 5DmkII was awesome, the mkIII must be even better so fork out another $4000 for it!"). Even if nothing changes, people will still buy the mkIII for video for the same reasons they buy the mkII: it's the only Full Frame camcorder available. Not even the F3 has a sensor that it as big.

Maybe they will choose to beef up the video capabilities of the 5DmkIII to try and compete with the digital cinema cameras, but it's not necessary for them. It might even undermine their own ability to enter the Digital Cinema camera race with a AF100/FS100 competitor. Like it or not, Canon are a business and if they see it as a necessity to improve the video on the DSLR's, then they will. As it is, they have very little competition from elsewhere in a similar price range, and their camera's are wildly popular. Until that changes, I wouldn't expect any major upgrades to video in the DSLR's.
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I agree Canon doesen't HAVE to do anything with the video to sell a ton of cameras - I was speaking purely on Canon keeping the momentum they have created for themselves, and I believe they are interested in fueling that as much as possible. One only needs to look at all their commercials on television for evidence of that - They barely talk about the photography side and are pushing the video big time....it's an additional niche that boosts the sales of these cameras. I may be naive, but the 5dMK3 is truly the beginning of the next generation of HDSLR for Canon...I never believed the other bodies stemming from the 7D would have any more than incremental upgrades due to what you mentioned - Canon didn't have to change anything, and it would not be good for the impression of the 7D/5DMK2 if the T3i had DIGICV and moire/alias free video, plus photographic improvements as well.
The 5DMK3 is different though....when I said make or break, I didn't mean as a photographic tool or a hybrid tool - They just have to release it and people will be lining the block. What I mean is that potential buyers of large sensor video cameras have more options now, (and even more in the next few years) and since all Canon DLSR video will basically stem from the MK3/DigicV for the next 3 or so years - it needs to be good to keep the attention of mainly video buyers. I for one believe it will be quite impressive and they'll keep the momentum rolling.
 
NoahK said:
Canon's big trade show for DSLRS is typically Photokina, not NAB...

Noah
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That's true...but I believe the OP is speculating on what the future holds for DLSR shooting in the aftermath of all the new cameras coming out...NAB included. (although no totally new large sensor cameras were introduced, other than the super mega Sony) The FS100 and AF100 and cameras like it may take away(AF100 already has) some DLSR shooters who are ready for something different.
 
If 5dmark3 come with there new codec 50Mbps MPEG-2 Recording 4:2:2 Color Sampling,with new Digic5 processor I can tell that is a game changer,because AF 100 is fantastic professional camera but crop factor is there,FS100 pal version don't have any 24p 60p, no ND filter,no SDI out,cant switch to 60mhz and 50mhz,and not a full frame also,..............so many people waiting for CANON 5DM3 ,........for me doesn't matter who make, I am just looking for a good camera for DSLR pricing that's it.........
 
This is complete speculation on my part (in other words talking out my &ss) but. . .Some of us were around when the first XL-1 came out and remember what an effect that had on the business, I didn't think lightning could strike twice but it did with Canon's DSLRs. Canon could (and maybe should) roll-up the whole camcorder division and put all their energy into the hybrid breed which presently outperform the camcorders. Like it or not the OMB trend is growing not shrinking, the only big thing between the Canon DSLR's and a total solution for the working professional is good audio and maybe TC and a couple of video optimized zooms. From the business standpoint the Panasonic approach with the AF100 isn't really opening up new territory the way the HDSLRs did. I thought for awhile that this new generation of big single chip cameras like the AF100 might kill the the HDSLR thing but now I'm thinking the only counterproductive trend in HDSLRs is the $1500 matte box syndrome.
 
Looking at Canon's product cycle's, The 1Ds is the next product due for an update. So while I agree that Canon may choose to implement DigicV and a massively improved video mode in their next generation of cameras, the first incarnation might not be at the $3000 price point of the 5D as everyone hopes, but rather at a price more comparable to (or much higher than) the AF100/FS100


jonatha said:
If 5dmark3 come with there new codec 50Mbps MPEG-2 Recording 4:2:2 Color Sampling,with new Digic5 processor I can tell that is a game changer,because AF 100 is fantastic professional camera but crop factor is there,FS100 pal version don't have any 24p 60p, no ND filter,no SDI out,cant switch to 60mhz and 50mhz,and not a full frame also,..............so many people waiting for CANON 5DM3 ,........for me doesn't matter who make, I am just looking for a good camera for DSLR pricing that's it.........
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Why the obsession with fullframe? Yes, the AF100 has a 2x crop factor but that actually makes it a lot closer to 35mm motion pitcure film than the 5DmkII.
 
deltoidjohn said:
Despite all these new cameras coming out, Canon don't need to do anything big with the video of the 5dmkIII - It's a Photography tool first and foremost so they'll improve the stills and it will still sell like hotcakes purely because of the success of the 5DmkII (basic marketing - "the 5DmkII was awesome, the mkIII must be even better so fork out another $4000 for it!"). Even if nothing changes, people will still buy the mkIII for video for the same reasons they buy the mkII: it's the only Full Frame camcorder available. Not even the F3 has a sensor that it as big.

Maybe they will choose to beef up the video capabilities of the 5DmkIII to try and compete with the digital cinema cameras, but it's not necessary for them. It might even undermine their own ability to enter the Digital Cinema camera race with a AF100/FS100 competitor. Like it or not, Canon are a business and if they see it as a necessity to improve the video on the DSLR's, then they will. As it is, they have very little competition from elsewhere in a similar price range, and their camera's are wildly popular. Until that changes, I wouldn't expect any major upgrades to video in the DSLR's.
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Wise speculation about a mega corporation.
 
I don't know... I think that the HD-DSLR days, as the darlings of video production, may be coming to an end. Just like what they did to the usage of 35mm adaptors. Now, video makers who could get a MDmkII then drop another $5k into gadgets and gizmos to make them usable for video production are now getting the F3. The AF100 and the soon to be introduced FS100 will further erode the usefulness of the HD-DSLRs for day to day video production. They will still be used for certain niches, but I think the HD-DSLR day in the video production sun is fading, quickly. I don't think that even vast improvements to the video made by a new camera like the 5DmkIII will change that.
 
What's DSLR filmmaking?

I know what filmmaking is.

And a DSLR is a tool one can use to make films.

Defining your craft exclusively through the tool you use will not help you grow in that craft.
 
David G. Smith said:
I don't know... I think that the HD-DSLR days, as the darlings of video production, may be coming to an end. Just like what they did to the usage of 35mm adaptors. Now, video makers who could get a MDmkII then drop another $5k into gadgets and gizmos to make them usable for video production are now getting the F3. The AF100 and the soon to be introduced FS100 will further erode the usefulness of the HD-DSLRs for day to day video production. They will still be used for certain niches, but I think the HD-DSLR day in the video production sun is fading, quickly. I don't think that even vast improvements to the video made by a new camera like the 5DmkIII will change that.
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I don't think so at all. I could imagine that the big guys don't even have a real plan yet on how to deal with this at all.
I am sure 5Dmk3 will be a huge improvement.
They've been working on Digic V for 4 years now, one of the reasons is video as they stated themselves. And it's a clever step in my opinion. 5DmkII pushed a market for Canon almost by accident.
Productions like 'House' were shot on it, known cinematographers are discussing or even praising it. The result was, everyone was talking about Canon. And it still affects the huge number of semi pros or even consumers.
DSLR video? Canon will be named first.
For any market, being the company named first is huge. With Digic V and a proper AF, sales of lenses will increase too.

I might be completely wrong but I don't think HDSLR will vanish soon for the sake of large sensor camcorders. You can't take it out of stills cameras any more, and just like video will get better and better on mobil phones, the same goes for stills cameras.
 
stip said:
I don't think so at all. I could imagine that the big guys don't even have a real plan yet on how to deal with this at all.
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I 'm pretty sure they have.

AF-100
NX-100
F3

A DSLR's primary function is, and will continue to be, TAKING STILLS.

Their sensor is optimized for it, and video will always come second.

If you want reliable XLR inputs, professional video outputs, and a video image that does not exhibit the aliasing and moire the DSLR's sometimes produce, then there are choices out there for you.


But bolting on cages, dslr-specific audio mixers, hdmi-hhdsdi adapters and external monitors onto a DSLR just to make it perform like a video camera when you can buy an off the shelf large sensor camera that uses the same great glass doesn't make sense, to me at least.

I've been down that road before.

158915348.jpg


Now, if you have a limited budget and are just learning film making, or want to be discete about shooting video, then that is where dslrs that shoot video rule.
 
better make sure no one use HARRP do attack japan again or else we wont be seeing new cameras on the horizon
 
David G. Smith said:
I don't know... I think that the HD-DSLR days, as the darlings of video production, may be coming to an end. Just like what they did to the usage of 35mm adaptors. Now, video makers who could get a MDmkII then drop another $5k into gadgets and gizmos to make them usable for video production are now getting the F3. The AF100 and the soon to be introduced FS100 will further erode the usefulness of the HD-DSLRs for day to day video production. They will still be used for certain niches, but I think the HD-DSLR day in the video production sun is fading, quickly. I don't think that even vast improvements to the video made by a new camera like the 5DmkIII will change that.
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I think I have to (respectfully) disagree here.

And one of the major reasons it lenses. For decades in the photography world there have been Nikon and Canon fanboys - people who invest in a system, sing it's praises, defend it's weaknesses, etc all because they have a significant amount of money tied up in the system and want to justify it. These people may be extremists, but they nonetheless are an example of the significance of being invested in a system and lenses. And this significance will (I believe) play a heavy hand in the future of digital video now that most film-makers have several quality EOS system lenses in their arsenal.

Take for example wedding videographers. There are hundreds of them around the country who are now using DSLR's either exclusively or very heavily. They might have invested $15000 all up in lenses, bodies, rails, rigs, audio gear, etc, etc. And that might get them 3 fully functional camera's - for about the same price they would've paid for 3 Professional Camcorders or maybe 2 AF100's and a few lenses. But when it comes time to upgrade, they only have to pay $3000 to upgrade all 3 cameras, instead of $15000 to upgrade the camcorders. So if they upgrade every 2 years, thats an extra $6000 a year in savings. That is a big incentive to stick with a system for a long time. The DSLR's for video might not improve quickly, but we've already seen people going to extra-ordinary lengths to use them for video and they will continue to do so as long as they are invested in the system. It will take another massive leap (a 4k XL-1?) before DSLR's get relegated to the sidelines.
 
The technicolor picture style will be very interesting.

Japan accident will for sure affect all kinds of stuff for the rest of the year, regarding release dates, availability etc.

I'm hyped for Mark3 but honestly don't see why Canon would drop a bomb.. I would not hold my breath even for proper 1080p.
 
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