AC160 My wish list Improvement to the AC160a

[Rod Pike]

By the way, this forum has been very er- quiet lately!
SO here as a new owner of the 160a is what I would like. The focussing on auto , to me is just not up to either of my Sonys and I have to say I am disappointed with this aspect having used Sony for 20 years and just changed to Panasonic. I emphasize that this is a personal view only, and relates to the way I like to shoot.

So I find I am using the snap focus button a lot when running in auto with the lens on manual. This all works reasonably well (not so well in low contrast , so manual adjustment is then a must.)-- but it is almost impossible to reach if the LCD screen is open. So if this function could be assignable to a user button it would be far easier to reach. That's my wish.
Generally I like the camera apart from some handling issues (I have always used shoulder mount). This is not to criticize the camera of course as it is obviously not a shoulder mount camera, and most of my work is tripod or Steadicam anyway..
However, the auto white balance is painfully slow and I recently had a lot of post work to do on a spontaneous incident moment on an industrial shoot recently. I was shooting in the open and an "event "happened in the warehouse just behind me, so no time at all to WB etc, just swing point and shoot). All ok after post fix though.

However, I like this camera and It is a new set of paint brushes for me, of which I am sure as time passes , I will get better at exploiting its potential! In fact I will probably buy another for 2 camera shoots, maybe a 130, as my SOny's are both 1080i and I am shooting now in 720 p almost exclusively.

Cheers!
Rod

 

[ChrisHarding]

Hi Rod

Apart from AF which I found I could live with, what I couldn't live with was the tiny autoiris range...I just could not leave the cameras on their own as autoiris only spans a small range of the aperture and doesn't change shutter speed so just a tiny change in the weather makes a manual ND change necessary. If auto had shutter and iris combos then I would have been a lot happier ..then again on a solo camera you can control this but I got to the stage where I was getting concerned the ND switch shaft would break off as I was changing ND almost constantly!!! Change that and you have a nice camera. Actually the WB too is not at all accurate either..even when it does lock in it's often poorly balanced. If I was doing indoor lit interviews or theatre performances..man it's good enough as it stands but you do need everything manual. For weddings using two of them solo I just couldn't cope!! I don't think you can compare the 160 to any shoulder mount camera..I spent a lot of cash making mine shoulder-mount and they were easy to use but they are probably better as a tripod camera. It not really a matter of "I wish it had......" but choosing the 160 for the right type of shooting scenario.

Chris

 

[Rod Pike]

Hi Chris,
Yes I have just discovered another horror that I guess is hidden in the manual somewhere--Today I shot a football match and discovered when I reviewed the footage , that it all seemed 2 stops over exposed! The camera was set on auto ( I know!) but this little gem has a facility for tweaking which I wasn't aware of ( my bad I guess, as they say!) and it is this: Even when set on full auto (menus as well) if you adjust the aperture ring you still can affect exposure- and sure enough this is what I had inadvertently done on investigation.
I was using the varizoom controller to manage zoom with all else on auto. But I had obviously tweaked, or moved the aperture controller and opened up the diaphragm by about 2 stops. Result in beautifully over exposed footage. = more post work!!!

I checked everything without the varizoom when I got home and sure enough there is a manual input of about 2 stops or so even when the camera is in full auto--- try it- set full auto then move the aperture ring. There appears no way to reset to the recommended setting other than adjust everything via the miniscule green dot and the exposure meter on the bottom right hand side. ( impossible to see in a bright out door situation) WHY??? Full auto should mean-- er-- full auto shouldn't it??
I am really wanting to like this camera but it has some very strange and seemingly pointless quirks. I am comfortable with shooting in full manual and have been for the last 30 years , and every camera I have used in full auto when required has performed faultlessly in that mode, with no intervention possible. . This feature is very poorly covered in the manual and although mentioned , also in Barry's book, gives no warning of problems this can cause , or how to revert to the recommended auto exposure. Is this feature there for fine tuning? if so, it would be as easy just to stick to manual surely? ( for me anyway).

Barry or Jan, your thoughts and comments/guidance on this quirky feature would be very welcome.
Rod ( a Panasonic user but not yet a convert!)

 

[ELN614]

Yeah I think Panasonic has over managed the building of this camera. I too find the f/stop range to be a negative factor along with the fact you can't see the screen effectively in the outdoors. Plus the fact of all the button 'behind' the LCD screen are impossible to get to.(ie the ones between the lens and the LCD hinge)

Next year I will seriously consider the new JVC coming out this fall or a Sony.
I just wish these people would retire the 1/3" chips and make the 1/2" the 'smallest' chip in pro camera. Do they not even notice they are shipping out still cameras, that do video, which have 1" chips or larger for CHEAP!!! $650 gets you a RX100 w/ a 1" chip. I can stick four 1/2" chips into the space of a 1" chip... or six 1/3" chips in the space of a 1" chip. Come-on manufactures stop playing rip-off games with us.

 

[ChrisHarding]

Hi Rod

Actually all the AVCCAM's have that feature!! In full auto you can adjust both iris and focus...sorta like a still camera EV control...however unless you remember where the ring was your only option is to power down the cam!! The HMC80 series is a little bit better cos it has an iris wheel on the body! You can switch from auto to manual by pressing the wheel in and also see what exposure you are at!! Because the 80 has the brilliant concept of putting the LCD in the EVF housing..light doesn't affect you view so you can immediately see you have zebras and can adjust the iris accordingly. On my 130's I had (as you probably know) a shoulder mount rig and a loupe over the LCD so it worked like my 80 series so I could actually see zebras in bright sunlight and you could also see that the image was over-exposed. Be very careful with scene files too...the autoiris setting there also acts as an EV compensator!! With my 80's that I replaced the 130's with, full auto is actually full-auto with manual over-ride but it's hard to accidentally adjust the iris wheel compared to the ring. I spent many hours with my 130's and clocked 80 hours on each camera so I discovered a lot!!! sadly most of it was disappointing !!

I really still cannot understand why auto doesn't also change shutter speed...the HMC40/80 has an iris range (not counting gain) from F1.8 to F16 and shutter bottoms out at 1/50th but in bright light goes right up to 1/2000th...after that an auto ND filter comes in so you can walk from bright sunlight into a dark room and the exposure copes all the way which is how auto should work!!

ELN614?? I have no idea why they never used the Sony EX3 design (like the HMC80) Dump the EVF at the back, dump the LCD so the controls are accessible and have an EVF/LCD combo..it's big and it's awesome!!! Yeah some 1/2" chips would be nice...do they suffer from resolution loss if you close the iris to F8 or smaller like the 1/3rd chip cameras??? I found the 130/160 res drops quite a lot unless you keep the iris at F5.6 or more open!!

Funny also I had weird issues with auto audio too!!! It physically crops just the top of the waveform so you lose all your high frequency yet on the 80 series it limits the signal and audio is pristine!!!

Yeah I love the JVC HM750 form factor but OUCH!! the price is double the 160 price AND that's without batteries or charger!!! For now I'm working happily with two HMC82's which cost me less than ONE AC-130 and I get darnside better results too!!

Chris

 

[Barry_Green]

So I find I am using the snap focus button a lot when running in auto with the lens on manual. This all works reasonably well (not so well in low contrast , so manual adjustment is then a must.)-- but it is almost impossible to reach if the LCD screen is open. So if this function could be assignable to a user button it would be far easier to reach. That's my wish.

Adding functionality to a user button would be a seemingly reasonable request.

But I'm curious -- how are you holding the camera? When I use one of these handhelds, I'm always using two hands -- one in the handgrip, one flat under the base. That way my index finger can easily reach all the lens rings, and in that position, the push-auto button is exactly under my thumb, so I don't find it impossible to reach at all, in fact it's exactly laying where I would want it...

 

[Barry_Green]

I just could not leave the cameras on their own as autoiris only spans a small range of the aperture

Well that's odd. The autoiris spans the entire range of the iris, from f/1.6 down to f/11. How much more would you expect it to span?

And even then, a word of caution -- you don't WANT it to span that big of a range. Because on a 1080p camcorder with 1/3" chips, diffraction becomes a real issue starting after about f/5.6 So in reality, for the best footage on ANY 1/3" full-HD camcorder, you only really ever want to use the iris range of 1.6 to 5.6. Anything deeper than 5.6 (such as f/8 or f/11) will result in your footage becoming unnecessarily soft. And this isn't a "problem" with the AC130/AC160/HPX250, it's the laws of physics and will apply equally to any 1/3" full-res 1080 HD camcorder.

and doesn't change shutter speed

That is true, these cameras don't have any sort of automatic shutter speed adjustment. If you find that your shooting style needs auto shutter and automatic ND's, then the AC160 is probably not the camera for you. The HMC40/HMC80 do have auto shutter and auto ND, and you would probably find those more suitable to your particular shooting style.

It not really a matter of "I wish it had......" but choosing the 160 for the right type of shooting scenario.

Totally agreed. The AC160's way of doing it is exactly the same as all its predecessors, the battle-proven HPX170, HVX200, DVX100 etc. None of them have auto shutter or automatic ND or anything like that, but they all have been used for years and years to create excellent footage under a huge variety of shooting scenarios. Even so, they're not ideal for every shooting scenario, and if you want a fully-110%-auto-including-auto-shutter type of camera, these aren't it.

 

[Barry_Green]

Yes I have just discovered another horror

A "horror"? Come on... let's not paint a negative picture about something which, to be fair, was more about user error than anything else. Used improperly the cameras can ruin footage, sure -- and when used properly they deliver far and away the best images in their class. You're new to the AC160, so some habits that may have become engrained in those of us who've shot on Panasonics for years are probably new to you, and therefore you can just ask, rather than using a potentially inflammatory word that blows something up out of proportion.

Today I shot a football match and discovered when I reviewed the footage , that it all seemed 2 stops over exposed!

Entirely possible, if you had told the camera to overexpose by 2 stops. It will do exactly what you tell it to. If you tell it to overexpose, it will.

You can't blame the camera for doing what you told it to do, clearly. Now, the problem here is that you didn't KNOW that you'd told it to overexpose, so this came as a nasty surprise. Understood. But there are at least FIVE WAYS the camera would have warned you about the situation, if you'd enabled those warnings:
1) The zebras. You absolutely have to use zebras!!! If you had your zebras set on 100%, you would have seen zebras all over your screen and would have known that something was amiss. Turn on your zebras.
2) The waveform. If you'd tapped the waveform monitor on to spot-check your exposure, you would have seen that everything was being blown out, and could have corrected for it. Frankly this is more effort and overkill as compared to just using the zebras, but it's another way you could have known.
3) The overexposure green dot. You've found this one now, I gather, but on the level meter there's a green dot that shows how much overexposure you've told the system to implement. If you see that green dot far to the right of the level meter, that tells you you're instructed the system to overexpose, and obviously that's a bad situation.
4) The level meter itself! Just a glance at the level meter in the lower right corner should have told you that you were in trouble. Ideally the level meter should be basically invisible, a simple vertical bar. I bet during your shoot it was a great big bar stretching to the right. That's a warning, that's telling you there's massive overexposure happening, and you should heed it.
5) The Y-get marker. That's a little box that tells you the brightness of the image, in a 0-99 scale, and skin should be normally 60 to 70, I bet you if you'd had it on, it would have showed more like 90, and you would have known that you were overexposing.

I know that when you're facing more post work nobody wants to hear "it was your mistake" but really, the camera provides so many tools to use, you have to take the time to learn them or you run the risk of this type of thing happening.

The very first chapter in my book on the AC160 is "Understanding Exposure" because it's such a crucial subject in getting great-looking video, and I describe all of the tools and features in great detail (12 pages -- how can you spend 12 pages on exposure? I don't know, but I did).

There appears no way to reset to the recommended setting other than adjust everything via the miniscule green dot and the exposure meter on the bottom right hand side.

Of course there's a way. Just pop the iris to manual and then back to auto, and it will reset to the default position.

WHY??? Full auto should mean-- er-- full auto shouldn't it??

Everything about the camera is customizable and controllable. Full auto means full auto if you leave everything to default settings, yes, but you can also override what goes into full auto -- you can tell it how much gain it's allowed to use (if any), you can tell it whether you want "full auto" to include autofocus or not, whether you want it to include auto-iris or not (and if so, how much over- or under-exposure bias you want), etc.

I am really wanting to like this camera but it has some very strange and seemingly pointless quirks.

Well, one man's feature is another man's quirk, I guess... I appreciate the customizability that it offers, and again this is old hat to those of us who have been using Panasonics for years. I understand that it could be quite unexpected for someone coming from another brand though. All I can say is -- it is what it is, it does what it does, and it's best to take the time to learn what it does so you can use it to best purposes when you're out on your next shoot.

 

[Barry_Green]

I too find the f/stop range to be a negative factor

How though? How is a range from f/1.6 to f/11 a negative?

along with the fact you can't see the screen effectively in the outdoors.

That's what the viewfinder is there for.

Plus the fact of all the button 'behind' the LCD screen are impossible to get to.(ie the ones between the lens and the LCD hinge)

That's been a longstanding complaint from Panasonic handheld users. Actually in the AC160 design they've really improved the situation, by making some of the functions that used to be only accessible by those buttons, now assignable to the user buttons (which are accessible when the LCD is closed).

 

[Barry_Green]

Actually all the AVCCAM's have that feature!! In full auto you can adjust both iris and focus...sorta like a still camera EV control...

Correct.

however unless you remember where the ring was your only option is to power down the cam!!

Incorrect. All you have to do is switch the iris to manual and back, and it will be reset to the default position. Push the "iris" button to go to manual, push it again to go back to automatic, and it will be "zeroed out" to full auto with no compensation.

The HMC80 series is a little bit better cos it has an iris wheel on the body!

The iris wheel on the body functions identically to the iris dial on the 160's lens.

You can switch from auto to manual by pressing the wheel in and also see what exposure you are at!!

The 160 does exactly the same thing. It has an iris button on the body that duplicates that exact function.

Because the 80 has the brilliant concept of putting the LCD in the EVF housing..light doesn't affect you view so you can immediately see you have zebras and can adjust the iris accordingly.

The 160/130 already have exactly that same functionality, in the viewfinder.

I spent many hours with my 130's and clocked 80 hours on each camera so I discovered a lot!!! sadly most of it was disappointing !!

Disappointing? Maybe for your shooting style, but I've clocked a lot of hours on the 40 and 80, and I can say unreservedly the 130/160 are far superior cameras in basically every possible way. With the one exception being what you probably value most about the 40/80, which is the full-auto mode allowing shutter exposure.

I really still cannot understand why auto doesn't also change shutter speed...

Because the shutter affects the motion of the video, and that's one thing that should never be changed without your permission or knowledge. This is one thing that I really value about the larger handhelds and one thing that bothered me about the HMC40/80. But seeing as you and I see this exactly opposite, that's the beauty of there being two different systems on the market -- we each can choose the one that works the way we prefer.

The HMC40/80 has an iris range (not counting gain) from F1.8 to F16

And the AC130/160 have a range (not counting gain) from f/1.6 to f/11. They are within a half-stop of each other. They have, for all practical purposes, the same potential range.

And shutter bottoms out at 1/50th but in bright light goes right up to 1/2000th...

And the AC160/130 have a shutter that bottoms out at 1/6 and goes right up to 1/2000th. It has more range than the HMC40/HMC80 have.

after that an auto ND filter comes in so

This is not correct. The ND filter is always implemented in the HMC40/80, at any iris more closed down than f/2.8. If you set an HMC40 or HMC80 to any iris past f/2.8, the iris doesn't actually change(!) Instead it starts implementing an ND filter, and every tick of the iris brings in more and more ND, until it maxxes out at f/6.3 (IIRC). Once you hit f/6.3, the ND filter is fully engaged, and any further "closing" of the iris will now actually start closing down the iris again. So when your HMC40 says "f/5.6", it is not in fact at f/5.6, it is at f/2.8 with two stops of ND filter implemented.

You can walk from bright sunlight into a dark room and the exposure copes all the way which is how auto should work!!

There is seamless integration in the HMC40/HMC80, with the shutter speed, that allows that to happen. And if that's what you want, the HMC40/HMC80 are the right cameras for you. But there are tradeoffs there too, which is that the shutter speed will change dramatically on you, resulting in hyper-stuttery motion in full sunlight, which an AC160 would never give you -- unless you specifically manually asked for it.

There is no universal "better", there is only "better for your intended purpose". If you want a camera that can automatically adjust its shutter, the AC series are not for you.

For now I'm working happily with two HMC82's which cost me less than ONE AC-130 and I get darnside better results too!!

Glad you're happy with your solution. I think the HMC80 (HMC82 down south) is an amazing little camera, with incredible performance for the price. I don't think it compares at all against the AC cameras in terms of flexibility, manual control, sensitivity, or many other ways, but then again it shouldn't, as it's a much less expensive camera. There are different solutions on the market for every different shooting scenario.

 

[ELN614]

How though? How is a range from f/1.6 to f/11 a negative?

Well mine seems to only go to f/8 or f/9 before it pops up and tells me that I need to change ND filters. I have never seen f/11 on this camera.
But based on stuff in your other post...

...for the best footage on ANY 1/3" full-HD camcorder, you only really ever want to use the iris range of 1.6 to 5.6. Anything deeper than 5.6 (such as f/8 or f/11) will result in your footage becoming unnecessarily soft...

The only good usable range is 1.6-5.6 :thumbdown Another reason why they need to make them 1/2" or even 2/3". Heck I think a 4/3 single chip camera would make me happy in a 130/160 body.

 

[Barry_Green]

The only good usable range is 1.6-5.6 :thumbdown

Which is a limitation in ALL 1/3" HD camcorders. It's even tighter for 1/4", the only good range there is 1.6 to 2.8, anything beyond that requires ND. It's just a limitation in all HD camcorders.

Another reason why they need to make them 1/2" or even 2/3".

1/2" buys you another stop before diffraction kicks in. 2/3" another stop after that.

And if you want 1/2" or 2/3", there are plenty of those on the market.

Heck I think a 4/3 single chip camera would make me happy in a 130/160 body.

Then buy an AF100, because that's pretty much exactly what that is! :thumbsup:

 

[Rod Pike]

Hi Barry, thankyou for your very detailed and informative feedback, I found it most useful. I was aware of most of the points you mention, other than switching the man/auto button to reset apertures and the fact that all avccam cameras have this manual tweaking possibility on the iris.
And yes, the entire mishap was certainly user error, born both of not fully understanding the operational mode and laziness on my part as the viewfinder image looked great with no blown highlights at all.

My comments regarding "little horror" and "Quirk " were meant to be referring to the surprise they caused me as unknown features rather than to defame what is a very high specced little camera. I did also check the exposure bar several times and saw nothing untoward.( and I really love that feature as I come from a background of still photography). I clearly could not have checked it enough!

The green dot over this was part of my learning curve when I got back home. Again, my voyage of dicovery. Although I feel it is too small to be easily seen in the field.

Regarding how I hold the camera: I rarely hand hold a video camera and in the few weeks I have had this It has always been on a tripod with the LCD open, so I am standing well behind the camera. Usually tripod mounted.

I have much to learn about this camera and am looking forward to doing so. My signature strapline was said to me by the President of a photographic society some 40 years ago . I was just starting an interest in still photography and wanted to buy a Pentax S1a. I use that line to always remind myself that it is not the equipment , but what you do with it. I think I should add "and your understanding of how to use it."! Thanks for your feedback
Rod

 

[ChrisHarding]

Thanks too Barry

You are indeed a true "guru" when it comes to Panasonic cameras. Every post I read will often have me say "Oh, I never knew that" I have always been told that switching iris from manual to auto doesn't reset any EV correction and you had to physically turn the camera off...I'm relieved that a simply press will reset iris correction!! Your amazing knowledge is always appreciated!!

Chris

 

[Barry_Green]

Hey, glad to help. And I do empathize with you folks over blown shots, that's never ever a fun thing to experience. I guess all I'm really saying here is that there are many ways to make sure that you don't have that happen again, so please learn what the camera's trying to tell you through its various methods, and hopefully that'll protect you from ever experiencing such heartburn again! Good luck!

 

[Rod Pike]

Thanks Barry, workin' on it! I re-read the relevant chapters in your book again last night to try to better understand the capability of this camera. (sad person, most people are nailed to the Olympics!)

Thanks again
Rod

 

[ChrisHarding]

Hi Rod

One thing I don't know but maybe you can check is whether adding a autoiris EV value to a scene file will only be applied to the footage and not the LCD....If you mod say F1 scene file and make the autoiris value +7 it should make the zebras appear pretty dramatically on the LCD ....As Barry says keep zebras turned on all the time...I remember accidentally running autoiris on the one 82 camera and I accidentally switched to manual and the LCD went crazy and totally full of zebras as the pic was seriously whited out!!!
I keep mine (regardless of camera) at 90% so if I get anything more than zebras on a piece of bright sky then I know something is not right!!!

Hey, I'm not watching the Olympics either!!!

Chris

 

[kwkeirstead]

I have no issue with the positioning of the Push Auto.

I do plan to build up that button so it is no longer flush with the camera body.

This is a very easy and worthwhile field change to make for those of us who are "all thumbs".

I removed the clear plastic sound volume guards and have never had any issues with inadvertent adjustments to these.

Seems to me the design approach is consistent across the camera - protect users from themselves. Maybe it's a little overkill but not a bad idea in principle.

All in all, NO complaints about this camera at all for stage, interview, documentary and sports events which is all I plan/need to cover.