MY Problem in Deciding for or Against the HVX...

mightywarlock

mightywarlock

New member
I am on the bandwagon for a new HVX, but i am still a little worried i may be making a bad decision based on the kind of work i sometimes do on shoots.

I work mainly in a Post facility and freelance camera and editing for all sorts of different scenario's, from shooting music videos and short films, to red carpet type of interviews and run and gun type stuff.
Hence my problem.
I love the idea of the HVX and all it is reported to be able to do, and i am willing right now to sell my DVX for it...but...i am unsure it will be suitable for me, or my clients.
I feel I need tape, and a very universally compatible format at that.
I have been on many shoots, where after the shoot i just turn in or hand over the miniDV tape to the client and get paid. Either that or I keep the tape as archival for who knows when. or when done with a project i am editing, i need to output to tape for the client to have dubs made.
For me, I think having tape, and tape the client or I can take anywhere to make dubs, is an extremely important deal maker.
Which is why i am having a very very hard time deciding what to do about my "next generation camera" move.
I know that the sony, while not the best camera, has been around and most post facilities have or are getting one of those sony hdv decks. i also understand neither the jvc, nor the canon, will be able to playback on the sony deck. Jvc wants their users to buy their hdv deck, and canon...well...who knows. maybe they are just hopeful someone will adopt them.
so right off the bat i feel in trouble with all the incompatibilities of HDV.
if i dont shoot with the sony and my client takes a tape shot with a jvc or canon to a dub house or editor who cant playback their tape, that is unacceptable.
and if i shoot with the HVX onto the memory cards or a firestore, what the heck am i supposed to give the client? If i shoot in dvcpro-HD, and either have to give them something to take somewhere, or even do the editing, I cant just hand them a harddrive to take somewhere to offload it...i am supposed to be offereing a full service service.
Everyone is talking about how great the idea of being able to shoot onto the memory cards is, and I do understand in certain situations it would be very very ideal (such as my current project...i shot and am editing a music video...it took me over 2 days just to digitize all the footage!), I am just very worried about the output stage or what i am supposed to offer the client if they want their footage.
I find it all very limiting and scary...albeit a wonderful sounding new product.
I just wish it had the ability to shoot to dvcproHD tape as well, (even though i know it is cost prohibitive) as that would make the choice a very very clear one.
I don't have much money, as I am sure a lot of the readers on this forum can fall in the same category, so the idea of multiple memory cards and thousands of dollars in extras after i buy the camera is a little worrisome, even though i know i want the capabilities the HVX will be able to offer...such as variable frame rate, etc..

Right now, i feel very lost by my choices and am just very unsure of what to do...
 
Wait.
That's what I would do if I were that uncertain.
Wait until the beginning of the year, then take the first 3 jobs that come along that you feel will suit each of the cameras in quesiton and rent them for the job.

That way you can take each one through its paces.
Once you get some hands on work with each camera you may find that one of them is clearly better for your needs, or at least be able to knock one out of the running.

By the way, handing a client off a harddrive isn't that weird. In fact, they should be happy they won't have to waste time/money digitizing anything. Offload your FireStore/CinePorter/P2 cards to an external FireWire drive and hand that off.
In the end the client pays for the drive, which is actually cheaper than HD tape (which they would have paid for otherwise).
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Wait.
That's what I would do if I were that uncertain.
Wait until the beginning of the year, then take the first 3 jobs that come along that you feel will suit each of the cameras in quesiton and rent them for the job.

That way you can take each one through its paces.
Once you get some hands on work with each camera you may find that one of them is clearly better for your needs, or at least be able to knock one out of the running.

By the way, handing a client off a harddrive isn't that weird. In fact, they should be happy they won't have to waste time/money digitizing anything. Offload your FireStore/CinePorter/P2 cards to an external FireWire drive and hand that off.
In the end the client pays for the drive, which is actually cheaper than HD tape (which they would have paid for otherwise).
Click to expand...

It's not always that simple though...
For instance, I have what i like to call, "Regulars", who demand a good deal...and i am willing to give them a good deal due to the amount of work the often give me. I dont always get what I should, but i get a lot of work without having to go hunting for it. well, these "Regulars" more often than not need tape, as they sometimes take their footage and send it off to other countries to have the editing done. for them, Tape is important. I have mentioned to them i will be moving up towards the HD realm soon and i have actually met with some hesitation from them as they think for the work they do, it complicates things and adds more expense...which is very true...FOR Them!
But that is just one aspect of the work i do here in Hollywood...
for them SD and SD on MiniDV may continue to be fine.
For myself, and a lot of the more creative work i do, (the films and music videos) i cant wait to shoot HD!

the idea of waiting, while i know is a more sound and safe approach, is also less economical for me somewhat in strange way, as i will have to sell my current DVX100A to add to the pot for the new camera, and i feel the longer i wait, especially now that the B is out, the lower the demand and cost my used camera will bring in.
 
Well, if they are that hell bent on having tapes, and they don't have much interest in going into HD, then why shoot HD for them?

All the cameras you are considering will shoot DV to tape, so it sounds like the regular customers you have shouldn't be too much of an issue. Just shoot DV for them.

At least now the decision of which camera to get sounds like it's more about what you want/need, as opposed to what your clients want.
That's good.
 
You could burn your raw clips onto a double layer DVD. DVDs are pretty fast 5 minutes per 4.5 gigs. If they want HD footage, pass the cost on to them. If they want 100 gigs, give them 11 DVDs, that's about two hours of work.
 
Plus if most are still MiniDV clients you can still use the HVX for that.
Once they see you are making a committment to "step-up" that will give them more confidence in you. The HVX will probably produce images as good as if not better than the DVX in SD. The HVX will also give you the option of 16:9, something you would need an adaptor for if wanting 16:9 shooting DVX. This is my plan and I will wait a few months before offering HD. In the meantime the HVX will immediately start paying for itself with the SD work I already have lined up.
 
Or consider using Iomega Rev-pro disks. 35Gb removable disks. Fast enough to read and write a DVCPRO HD stream to and from in real time. Each cartridge is about $20.00. As robust as a tape.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
You could burn your raw clips onto a double layer DVD. DVDs are pretty fast 5 minutes per 4.5 gigs. If they want HD footage, pass the cost on to them. If they want 100 gigs, give them 11 DVDs, that's about two hours of work.
Click to expand...
It sounds like mightywarlock is in a very similar boat to me, and the workflow suggested above really is not practicable for me, and I suspect him. At the end of a days filming at the moment it is possible to simply hand over a tape and wave goodbye. Having to start burning DVDs before this could happen is unacceptable for reasons of time alone, let alone extra equipment needs etc. I'd like to upgrade before too long to gain HD capability. The HVX has much to commend it in many respects, but for many users the lack of consumable media really is a huge issue. So yes, at the moment, wait. I just wonder how long it will be for?

Mightywarlock - I don't think the HDV compatability issue is quite as bad as you imply. My understanding is that there are only really two variants - HDV1 and HDV2, corresponding to 720 and 1080. Sony only bothered with 1080i initially, and Canon have extended the spec to include a progressive mode, a subset of HDV2. Hence Sony HDV tapes should play on Canon machines, and a tape recorded on a Canon machine should play on a Sony player PROVIDED IT IS SET TO 1080i. Can anyone add to that?
 
All the HDV decks and cameras that I have come across will play 720P tapes giving a component, s-video or composite output. HOWEVER JVC cameras and decks will not give you a firewire output for the 1080 tapes, only 720P tapes. The Sony and Canon cameras will play back both 720P and 1080i tapes but only give a firewire output for the 1080 tapes. Canons "p" mode is not true progressive, the progressive like frames are created from an interlaced image but encoded in such a way that they look very much like a progressive image.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Well, if they are that hell bent on having tapes, and they don't have much interest in going into HD, then why shoot HD for them?

All the cameras you are considering will shoot DV to tape, so it sounds like the regular customers you have shouldn't be too much of an issue. Just shoot DV for them.

At least now the decision of which camera to get sounds like it's more about what you want/need, as opposed to what your clients want.
That's good.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Luis. The HVX will do everything for you that your DVX does (and more). I look at it as "expanding markets" with the capability to shoot the professional format in addition to mini-dv. Hard discs are simply not that expensive (as has been said) or clumsy to hand off. Who knows, perhaps a little salesmanship by showing the client a couple of sexy shots from a 720p HD shot will help them justify (if not jump) the additional expense? Best of luck.
 
alisterchapman said:
Canons "p" mode is not true progressive, the progressive like frames are created from an interlaced image but encoded in such a way that they look very much like a progressive image.
Click to expand...
And can you confirm my understanding that it's only in this mode that there is Sony-Canon incompatability? That used for 1080i Sony and Canon tapes are fully interchangeable?
 
alisterchapman said:
Or consider using Iomega Rev-pro disks. 35Gb removable disks. Fast enough to read and write a DVCPRO HD stream to and from in real time. Each cartridge is about $20.00. As robust as a tape.
Click to expand...

Alister,
You make this sound like we could record directly to the iOmega Rev disk, like a Firestore device - or a bigger swappable P2-
I doubt that, I think you can just continually back up from P2 to
(and then the person you hand the tape to must have an Iomega 400$ reader)
but
OhMy - That would be insane if you could write to these and they were swappable
That's what we need
(and I would buy stock in Iomega)
 
Canon HDV shot in progressive mode will playback on a sony HDV camera or deck,

If my understanding of the way the HVX will work is correct, you will not be able to record directly to Iomega Rev drives (Boo Hoo) but if you have a couple of P2 cards you should be able to shoot on to the P2 cards and then plug in the Rev Drive (which behaves like any other external USB 2 Hard Drive) and dump the footage direct to the Rev drives without the need for a laptop or other device. The Rev drives are going to be used in the Grass Valley Infinity HD camcorder.
 
alisterchapman said:
My BIG Mistake, I just tried it and 24F will not playback on my Z1. 30F will but not 24F.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm. I wonder in that case if this whole Canon-Sony incompatability issue is only a problem in 60Hz countries. My understanding had been that if 1080i/25 (30) was shot there was no problem between makes (that does seem true) BUT Canons progressive recordings wouldn't play back on Sony machines.

I presume 50Hz Canons will only feature 25F (not 24F and 30F), so would also presume from what you say that will play on 50Hz country Sony machines?
 
mightywarlock said:
Right now, i feel very lost by my choices and am just very unsure of what to do...
Click to expand...

Don't feel lost. It's all quite simple. Like mentioned above, if you don't need HD right away go with DV tape. But get at least one P2 card because you'll love the variable framerate option for your music videos. You shoot the shot on the card and then transfer it to the tape in the camera.
If you're client is ready to go HD (wich will cost him more) then look at the job you have to do. For music videos and shorts, renting cards and dumping on HDs might be ideal. For Run and gun HD the cineporter looks verry promising. But unless you and more importantly your clients want to go down that road there are no worries.
Also, not a single editor will complain when give them a harddisk with the footage on it, trust me. And harddisks don't cost fortunes anymore.
Again, your clients shouldn't be expecting HD material for an SD price.
 
alisterchapman said:
Canon HDV shot in progressive mode will playback on a sony HDV camera or deck,
Click to expand...
Not true. Canon 24F and 30F will not play back in any Sony equipment.

The only compatibility between Canon and Sony is when shooting interlaced 1080/60i. Canon 1080/60i will play back on the Sony equipment, but that's it -- no Canon "progressive" footage will play on any Sony equipment.

Any Sony footage can play back on the Canon.

And no Canon equipment will play any JVC footage at all. It is true that the Sony has a partial-compatibility mode where it can view JVC 720/30p footage, but cannot play it out to firewire, thus it is useless in a digitizing environment. And while I haven't tried it, I would be shocked if the Sony had any playback provision for JVC 24P footage. And the Canon won't even try.

Canon doesn't record its 30F or 24F as fields, it records them as frames, as far as I can tell. That's what makes them incompatible with the Sony gear. Canon has, in effect, created their own format.
 
Barry_Green said:
Canon has, in effect, created their own format.
Click to expand...

Yay, yet another HDV variant!!
(okay, enough sarcasm)

People should remember this the next time they think panasonic is being wasteful by streaming the HVX's 720P firwire signal as 60 frames, padded with duplicates... or adding a pulldown to the 1080P footage and recording it as a full 1080i signal.

There is something to be said for staying within the specs of an accepted and supported codec.
The best camera in the world is no good to anyone if it doesn't have a reliable and clear post workflow behind it.
 
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