My intro. Dvx100a outdated? now, HVX200...

This is my opinion, and only my opinion.

You sound like my younger brother when he borrowed a copy of 'Rebel without a Crew' and got all amped up about going out and shooting films. I don't mean that as an insult, but rather as a compliment. Enthusiasm is great, and you are going to need a ton of it in order to do anything with this passion. Having said that, I am actually going to go out on a limb here and completely disagree with most of what other people have said here.

I am a cheap bastard, but then again, when I want something I go out and do it. Others here have noted from your posts that you seem to be in gear lust (EX: If you read an EVS Catalog while on the toilet, you have gear lust, trust me, I do it all the time). That being said, I would recommend getting on Ebay and spending $100 on a cheap minidv camera. If you want to go a step above that invest in a cheap 3CCD camera ($400-$800). Get yourself a cheap mic (Audio Technica AT-55 for $55), a broom ($10), and some worklights from a home depot ($20). For under $500 you will have a rig, most of which you can Ebay for the same price you paid. Go out and shoot 5-10 shorts. Download the Vegas demo and MagicBullet Demo. Play around with them, get some experience, develop some technique. Read everything you can, hang around DVXUser (you'll learn a ton, also learn to love the search feature), watch movies and listen to commentary tracks on several films.

After you do about 5-10 shorts uprade your camera, maybe to the DVX100A or maybe something like a DVC30. After doing about 30-50 projects with that, then upgrade to the HVX.

I'm not trying to be negative, but it really seems as if you are putting the cart before the horse here. You are off to a great start, but even many of the most experienced users here have not exhausted the power of the 100A, and you're talking about the HVX for a first unit. Seems like a bit of overkill. I would recommend building up to the 100A so you're ready for it. True, the look is incredible, but what you will learn on a lower model will be more valuable to you.

Save your money, and for the love of everything in the world, finish school. Any filmmaker will tell you the odds of success are very limited, but it is your passion that will keep you going.

OK, time for me to finish storyboarding for a shot we have in 3.5 hours. Sleep is for the weak, and entries for a one minute film festival are a lot more exhaustive than you would think when you sign on to do one.
 
TheYankee said:
I am a cheap bastard, but then again, when I want something I go out and do it. Others here have noted from your posts that you seem to be in gear lust (EX: If you read an EVS Catalog while on the toilet, you have gear lust, trust me, I do it all the time). That being said, I would recommend getting on Ebay and spending $100 on a cheap minidv camera. If you want to go a step above that invest in a cheap 3CCD camera ($400-$800). Get yourself a cheap mic (Audio Technica AT-55 for $55), a broom ($10), and some worklights from a home depot ($20). For under $500 you will have a rig, most of which you can Ebay for the same price you paid. Go out and shoot 5-10 shorts. Download the Vegas demo and MagicBullet Demo. Play around with them, get some experience, develop some technique. Read everything you can, hang around DVXUser (you'll learn a ton, also learn to love the search feature), watch movies and listen to commentary tracks on several films.

After you do about 5-10 shorts uprade your camera, maybe to the DVX100A or maybe something like a DVC30. After doing about 30-50 projects with that, then upgrade to the HVX.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, that is a lot of money thrown out. If the end target is the HVX, then just go for it. Why spend money on a cheap camera, then spend more money on a DVX, and then finally buy an HVX.
When you resell your cameras, you don't get the same value.
To me, that is just waste of money. But if you love wasting money, then go for it.
 
yankee is dead on.

don't let the equipment seduce you. it's not about the equipment. there are people with cadillac equipment that couldn't make anything remotely entertaining if their life depended on it. you shouldn't be reading B&H catalogs. you should be reading robert mckie's books or lighting books, jay rose, even (sigh) syd field.
 
Yankee is dead on take 2;

araujofh:

"In my opinion, that is a lot of money thrown out. If the end target is the HVX, then just go for it. Why spend money on a cheap camera, then spend more money on a DVX, and then finally buy an HVX.
When you resell your cameras, you don't get the same value.
To me, that is just waste of money. But if you love wasting money, then go for it."

I'm sorry but what are you saying there ?...the main target ?...How could we possibly say when you are making independant film(as we do here; professionnaly or not; in a way or another..."low budget") that the target is a camera ?

Why spend money on a cheap camera ?....to have a back-up after...(even a really cheap one is better than nothing) to don t edit with a camera of 3500$ when you can with a 200$ one to save the heads.

When you resell your cameras, you don t get the same value ?....he doesn t need to sell it after...(read again above)

"But if you love wasting money, then go for it" ?...are you kidding me ?...nobody here like to waste money; we're trying to invest in a way to avoid this result... and it's exactly why humility route is needed here...

BTW, i saw your short... honestly, and i dont want to be impolite here, but you still have a lot! of thing to learn before giving your opinion about buying a 3500 camera...even worst a 5000 camera as a first one.

Sorry, but i couldn t disagree more there

Good luck and your decision to the guy who started the post.
 
justmarvin said:
Again, as a one time investment (for a long time) in filmmaking, should I go ahead and go straight for the HVX200?
Click to expand...
"One time investment???" What makes you think that? If you bought a DVX it would more than likely take you years and years to develop the skill to take full advantage of all its capabilities and win a Best Cinematography award like Nancy Schreiber did in 2004 with her film November. By that time, there's a good chance you'll have enough money to buy whatever camera can take you to the next level. I've been fooling around with my DVX for almost a year now and have barely scratched the surface of its full potential.

Here's the deal: Quality equipment doesn't mean anything unless you have a good story. Just look at all of the junk Hollywood turns out if you need proof.

So, for a filmmaker, the number one creative requirement is good story telling. From a technical standpoint, the number one element is, oddly enough, good sound and not good image. Brains can tolerate some pretty awful photography as long as the story is compelling, but they can't tolerate bad sounds. So here's advice that pro's have given me that I'll pass on to you:

Invest first and foremost in the best mic you can afford. Secondly, get the best tripod you can afford. Third, get the best camcorder you can afford with the money left over. I've seen some amazing stuff done with cheap video cameras, and it all boilded down to creatively telling a good story, good sound, smooth pans and tilts, and not beautiful cinematography. But if you do aspire to have whatever you make shown on the big screen, then rest assurred, the DVX is capable. I just saw November for the first time last week on a decent sized screen, and I was blown away. Trust me, in the time it will take you to learn how to do what Nancy did in that film, you're going to have plenty of time to save up money for your next camera.

My two cents. :)
 
Always take this in the calculations.

The DVX shots better pictures then most of us can use it for. Its not the cam thats the problem its often the user.
 
If you are excited by the HVX, then buy it. If you want to start filmmaking , you need a camera with you. And if that camera appeals to you the most, then get it. You'll regret not getting it and it will be one more thing to hold you from telling your stories.
That's from my own experience.

I was in my first year at a film and TV College in Portugal, Europe. I believe that on the end of that first year, (that was 1997) I planned on doing a documentary in the summer break, and got funding to do so. With that funding I bought the TRV 900. Believe me, this was the best decision I've ever made. With that camera I won a couple of awards in film festivals, did a good bunch of projects and learned a lot more about the practical side of filmmaking than any class. It's when you mess around with aperture, gain, color balance, etc... That you really start to learn to "see"what the camera sees...

And when you are in control and know what the camera sees, you can start to really build and control the outcome of your film- and no wise guy pseudo cameraman or DP can impose a vision you don't want (and believe me, they can smell your inexperience and doubts!) simply because you don't know how to work with the equipment. As a director, you are at the Helm. You can give creative freedoms to others but be sure to know that in any occasion everyone will come at you with questions, and you need to face the bull by the horns. Know your camerawork, your lighting, sound, etc... Play with it, adventure with it, SHOOT with it. Then, as time goes along, your confidence grows, and so does the team around you. Then hopefully you reallise how bad your first attemps where and then really start to really craft your own beautiful picture. (but maybe you canget it right at the first time- I couldn't however! :)
 
Thanks for the reply from PKraft. You have Vegas and Mac and prefer Mac? What about all that stuff about how easy it is to integrate different frame rates into one timeline on Vegas?

That being said, I'm a massively busy person and the Mac always appealed to me because of the ease of use. I work with photos quite a lot and it is rather a pain moving them around to different programs on the PC.

I was hoping I could use a video/movie editing software to create a more sophisticated slide show than I can with powerpoint... I was supposing that I could drop multiples of each jpeg into a video editing timeline, create fades from one to the next, etc. As this is a project I'll actually get paid for, it would be nice to know which software would handle it better.

Also to the guy that started this thread, here is my two cents. Buy a DVX100a - I just did - this website is worth the price of the camera, honestly. I've been a self-taught professional in two different fields (not video) over the course of two decades and I've NEVER come across a professional resource like this one. I bet you there is no website like this for the new HD camera.
 
I bet there's gonna be. http://www.hvxuser.com/ already points right here.

Many people on this forum bought the DVX when it was new and the best cam on the market. Coming spring the HVX is going to be the best cam on the market for self-financed or otherwise low budget filmmakers. So why not buy it?

Personally I have made over 10 short films in the last five years, using cameras like the TRV900/PD100, XL1, XL1s, XL2, PDX10, DSR570, DSR300 and of course the DVX100. I got fed up with having to loan or rent the camera every time I started to make a movie, so I was gearing up to buy the XL2 as my first own camera (save for a home video Sony that I use solely for making-of and playback). That's when the HVX came into my knowledge. Now the choice is pretty clear. The DVX would be excellent if only it had a 16:9 without compromises. The HVX delivers this and much more.

From the messages of the guy who started this thread I'd conclude that he's well past the stage you suggest he should go through with lower quality cams. People keep saying it's about the story, but it's not _just_ about the story - it's also about aestethics and techical quality. At least it is if you ever want your film to have a life outside of your own website or your parents' dvd-shelf.

I agree with the sentiment of story first, equipment second but that does not mean that you can shoot your film with whatever god-forsaken old s-vhs camera your school has had lying around since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Maybe I got a little ranting here but that's my opinion :) I just hate it when people tell _me_ to do with lower technical quality. I refuse to do that.
 
aquafox, I agree with you. You might want to get a certain "Dogma"feel to your movie (realistic, handheld, no lighting), and that can be achievable with PD150's, DVX100's, etc. However, for iother types of fiction work for the big screen, i believe the16/9, 1080/24P, HD quality lens, or HD and SD with 4:2:2 color space are really important.

I believe You can have an acceptable script with acceptable actors and reasonable Cinematography easily accepted in festivals with a Varicam, compared to similar ingredients shot with the DVX. The eyes eat too, and picture quality is also a way to make the difference. ( altough a good script, great acting and good cinematografy shot with a DVX or PD150 can and does prevail over this setting).
Here's an easier comparison: If you have a great script and great actors, shot with a dvx, you can have a video Festival winner, but if you have the same shot with the HVX at 1080p... You might just have a great theatrical release (and possibly... a major Short FILM festival winner, or even...the short film Oscar ?)
 
Here's an easier comparison: If you have a great script and great actors, shot with a dvx, you can have a video Festival winner, but if you have the same shot with the HVX at 1080p... You might just have a great theatrical release (and possibly... a major Short FILM festival winner, or even...the short film Oscar ?)
///////////////////////////////

I disagree. an $800 ebay TRV900 is all the camera a new filmmaker needs. probably more than enough.
 
skart82 said:
Yankee is dead on take 2;

araujofh:

"In my opinion, that is a lot of money thrown out. If the end target is the HVX, then just go for it. Why spend money on a cheap camera, then spend more money on a DVX, and then finally buy an HVX.
When you resell your cameras, you don't get the same value.
To me, that is just waste of money. But if you love wasting money, then go for it."

I'm sorry but what are you saying there ?...the main target ?...How could we possibly say when you are making independant film(as we do here; professionnaly or not; in a way or another..."low budget") that the target is a camera ?
Click to expand...

When I meant target camera, I meant the camera he was after. If you want an HVX, then go for it, don't do intermediate buyings.
I never said the target was a camera. Again, target as want he really wants.

skart82 said:
Why spend money on a cheap camera ?....to have a back-up after...(even a really cheap one is better than nothing) to don t edit with a camera of 3500$ when you can with a 200$ one to save the heads.

When you resell your cameras, you don t get the same value ?....he doesn t need to sell it after...(read again above)
Click to expand...

Well, I agree with you with regards to having a camera for capturing, but I don't agree on buying a cheap camera, then a DVX and then an HVX. If you really want an HVX, then get an HVX.

skart82 said:
"But if you love wasting money, then go for it" ?...are you kidding me ?...nobody here like to waste money; we're trying to invest in a way to avoid this result... and it's exactly why humility route is needed here...
Click to expand...

Well, I think it is a waste of money to buy a cheap camera, then a DVX, then an HVX. Unless he wants all the cameras, which is hardly the case. Everybody ends up selling their old cameras. We had some examples of guys that sold the DVX to buy an XL2.
If it was that easy, then everybody would have a DVX and an XL2.

skart82 said:
BTW, i saw your short... honestly, and i dont want to be impolite here, but you still have a lot! of thing to learn before giving your opinion about buying a 3500 camera...even worst a 5000 camera as a first one.

Sorry, but i couldn t disagree more there

Good luck and your decision to the guy who started the post.
Click to expand...

Well, I never said I was an expert. I am just using common sense to give my opinion.
To me is really stupid to go intermediate ways just to get an HVX. But, as you said you disagree, and I respect that. That is your opinion.

The final decision is the guy's decision. He will know what to do.

As for my short, well, you should have given your opinion on that post. That is why I posted it, to get people's opinion, whether bad or good because that is how we learn.
 
I cant comment in as en educated manner as some of the really experienced people here...... but I can say this from life experience. If you think what your doing is worthwhile and the HVX is the camera to do it on ...... do it.

I will say this.... there are some talented people on this forum, but boy I often see negative comments. Mate go live your dream however you want.

Aim for the big goal because it is scary ... not the little one because its safe. Personally I would opt for some higher end NLE.... because you can grow into it. Once youve cut the fabric and make small pants... you cant make them bigger.

Sorry just wanted to add this...... no the dvx isnt out dated. Someone commented on non native 16:9 well get the panasonic 16:9 adaptor lense. :thumbsup: you can have my destroyed one for free....
 
ncje said:
I cant comment in as en educated manner as some of the really experienced people here...... but I can say this from life experience. If you think what your doing is worthwhile and the HVX is the camera to do it on ...... do it.

I will say this.... there are some talented people on this forum, but boy I often see negative comments. Mate go live your dream however you want.

Aim for the big goal because it is scary ... not the little one because its safe. Personally I would opt for some higher end NLE.... because you can grow into it. Once youve cut the fabric and make small pants... you cant make them bigger.

Sorry just wanted to add this...... no the dvx isnt out dated. Someone commented on non native 16:9 well get the panasonic 16:9 adaptor lense. :thumbsup: you can have my destroyed one for free....
Click to expand...

ncje, I am with you on this one.
 
If you can afford a HVX200 why not start getting experience with the best equipment at that moment. Moreover before you now it the HVX will .already be out dated by another cam from another brand. Probably Sony will have already a successor early 2007. Canon will probably introduce something new before 2007.
 
JustMarvin,

I can't advise you either way, but I can let you know my experience. We shot our first film on consumer cameras, and though it has done well in SMALL film festivals, there is no doubt that the camera quality was holding us back. My filmmaking partner did some great work in Premiere pro, but there's only so much you can do with 1 CCD cameras (yeah. that's right. 1CCD.) So we invested in a DVX100a and have had it for a couple of months.

We've found out some things that may apply to you:
1) In looking at the work posted here and other work shot on the DVX, I am fully convinced that the DVX100a will take us as far as our filmmaking ability can go at this time. This is sort of a win-win situation. If our ability never matches the full capability of the DVX100a, then we made a good investment in a camera that is not hindering us. If we have the skill to max out the capability of the camera, we will certainly be in a place financially where we can afford higher end equipment.

2) After making sure that we have a sufficient camera, we are finding out that our money is running out fast in accessories that we "need." (It's kinda hard to say "need" with everything going on in New Orleans, but you know what I mean.) We feel like there is a certain level of equipment that we need to ensure that we are not held back by their quality. It doesn't make since to spend a lot of money on a camera and then get accesories that will also hinder the production

3)After $3000+ (The "+" is the costs associated with the camera. Shipping, case, extended warranty, insurance. There's a couple hundred there bucks there. In getting everything you need the "couple hundred bucks" here and there really add up, let me tell ya.) There's $1500-2000+ in PC/software. $500+ in a tripod. $500+ in lights. $500+ on sound. So we're at somewhere around $6500, and that's just to get started. Throw in a cheap dolly, cheap hand-held stabilizer and anamorphic lens adapter and you're well over 7 g's, but that's a pretty sweet set up for a first time DV filmaker.

4)The remaining $2,500 will go very fast when you start making shorts. I promise.

So that's my $.02 as someone that may be in a similar situation. Good luck. I can't wait to see you posting some of your work.

Belarussian2001
 
Hi there,

I am no expert as I just got my DVX100 and havent started my first production yet, but I have a few comments.

I think there are many moneysaving aspects about the HVX200 and other aspects that makes it the better choice, but there are also a few other things that might make the DVX100 the best choice.
Let me order my arguments like this:

1. Even though the DVX100 CAN make solid feature films (November, Lonesome Jim, Land of Plenty etc.) then it is more the exception to the rule that they succeed. If you are truly ambitious and can afford it then buy the HVX200 - the better resolution is godly compared to the DVX100.
Dont listen to all the arguments about the DVX100 is good enough - it is good enough, but the HVX200 is the future.

2. One thing you have to consider is sound and light

3. A good thing about HVX200 is that it comes with native 16x9. This is VERY important. The DVX100 does not have native 16x9. It has a squeeze mode which is NOT good for the big screen, if you plan on having your films transferred to film and projected on a big screen. Do not use squeeze mode. So with the DVX100 you will something called an anamorphic adapter. This will cost you another 750 $ and makes it impossible to apply a wide angle lens. The wide angle lens will be sorely missed. Really.

4. Lens on HVX200 is better. They have bettered it since the DVX100. Let me also repeat: It comes with NATIVE 16x9

5. The good thing about getting a dvx100 first is that you can use it as a secondary camera later on. Thats my devious plan. The advantage of mini-DV is the low cost of shooting. Woody Allen would never use more than one 35mm camera. With DV you can afford to use two and film from two angles and thus have a lot more choices when you edit.

6. You will need MUCH MUCH more equipment than just the camera. I am still trying to write down a shopping list and it is hard to get it down below 10K$ (Have a shotgun mike and the DVX100 already).

7. Sound. Besides a good shotgun mike (I am lucky to have the Sennheiser MKH416 for 1K$) you should have a second way to record. That way you have more than one channel if sound is screwy.
People use wireless lavalieres for some situations. I am planning to get a lavaliere system besides that shotgun mike on a boompole.

8. Things you will need to pay for:
- DV tapes (you will need a lot for one production so it will cost you even if they are like 5$ a piece).
- boompole for shutgun mike
- shotgun mike, minimum 500$
- lavaliere system .. two lavs wireless PLUS transmitter. Best have three if one malfunctions during a shoot.
- soundrecorder. "Marantz 660" for 500$ up to 744t for 4000$
- CompactFlash cards. For the Marantz. A 1 GB cost around 65$ and can record 1 hour. You might need four. One will definitely not do as these can malfunction.
- Lights. I know little of lights. Lowels are acceptable. A 3 set will set you down 800$. The more expensive sets from other manufacturers (industry standard) is easily 2000$.
Consider you might need umbrellas/chimeras and at least two or three different style of light for different uses.
- Anamorphic adapter - no matter what people say - if you have the DVX100 you WILL need one if you plan feature film for the big screen. Period. 700$
- Raincoat for the DVX100. 125$
- tripods. You will need a heavý one. Really. When you make pans etc. it has to be heavy and move fluid. I have a vinten tripod, vision 10. Got it cheap but think a decent tripod could cost 1000$.
- monopole.. for "handheld" shots where you dont need 100 percent stability you can use a monopole just to lean on. 120$.
- You might even want to consider a good still camera for use in your production. Nikon d70. 1000$
- PC or MAC with editing software. I know the MAC is neat, but I live in Denmark where most people use PCs so that is what I prefer. There are many good and legal programs to download for free and a lot of editing software for a bit more. Good thing about PCs are that they are customizable. Very easy to put in more ram, new graphic card, extra screen or Harddisk. I prefer PCs but it is a matter of taste too. I edit on AVID 4,6 PRO.
- Business cards and website domain name and a website hotel will cost you a little too.
- You might want a portable dvd player 16x9 or 16x9 television / monitor to check result when on location right on the spot.
- Wideangle lens VS-07CV-DVX 0,7X wide angle is what most people get. 1100+$
- I mentioned PCs. You might want to have an extra LCD screen of at least 19". And an extra graphics card. A FireWire HD of 300+GB. etc etc..
- a projector to get an idea of your film on a big screen.

9. When I mention all the stuff you need to buy it is just to make you aware the camera is just the beginning. There is also actors, rent for equipment you dont have, backup if the current stuff you have gets broken. Remember a good insurance if the camera you have breaks or you drop it to the ground. Check that your insurance covers accidents. I am still waiting for my insurance to fall into place before I take my dvx100 out of the home!!

10. Find out what is important for you and dont listen to all the people who say DVX100 goes straight to cinema. It IS possible. But the better resolution you will have the better a position you have when trying to sell that film. Trust me even the HVX200 has less colorspace and resolution than film, so you will still have that grainy feel when you transfer to film. But I think the HVX200 is breaking the boundaries. Where the DVX100 is just close to become real good for cinematic films transferred to 35mm, the HVX200 will get there. With the HVX200 you can more likely get away with making a film for the silver screen. IMHO.

I am no expert but I have spent hours and hours reading books and the internet the last three weeks and I am printing and gathering articles and trying to compile information incl. trying to understand everything I need to proceed. I still have to raise the last 10K$ over the next year before I can make a bigger feature...

I wish you good luck and will advice you to read and read and read on the internet. There are many good books to buy too. I have bought quite a lot. I can compile you a list of what I have been recommended. I havent even received them all yet...

IMHO you might need to double your budget to get what you need for a feature. But 10k$ should get you started and learning the dvx100 takes time. Really.

Best regards,

D.

www.peyotefilm.drac.dk
 
Can we all please remember that we haven't even seen footage from the HVX yet, let alone is it avaliable to buy! How can you recommend a camera you have never seen or even read a review on?

If you are considering a HVX, please wait for it to be released before you make too many decisions. It could be far worse than people are hoping... and from what some people are expecting (a CineAlta for $6000) it will be.

As regards to how much to spend on a camera, I would say that if you are sure about seriously pursuing filmmaking, buy the best camera you can afford, without neglecting your other equipment.

IMO the importance of equipment is something like this, but it depends on your style of shooting:

1) Camera and a decent mic (won't get anywhere without them!) ~ 50% budget
3) Some lights (camera can't see without light) ~ 15% budget
4) Monopod and tripod (personally I have never had any issues with my cheap tripod - but it was a good cheap tripod. If it is high enough, pans and tilts smoothly and doesn't move about, that's all you need.) ~ 10% budget
5) Boom pole or Mic stand (the closer the mic, the better the sound) ~ 2% budget
6) Headphones, mixer extra XLR leads etc. (achieve better sound) ~ 2 - 10 % budget
7) Reflectors, gels etc. ~ 5% budget
8) Additional mics, stands, GAFFER TAPE, magic arms, connectors, leads, tool kit, TAPESTOCK - (If there is one fact in filmmaking, it is - you will fail without gaffer tape) ~8% budget

That is just roughly how I spilt my percentages, so it will work with any budget amount. Obviously some people will feel differently, for example I can't justify spending more on a tripod because I don't use one that heavily. For a wildlife photographer they would need to spend more.

Then in the edit:

1) Good software
2) A machine able to run the above, the faster the better!
3) Loads of hard drive space
4) External monitor
5) Decent Monitor speakers
6) External edit deck/second camera
 
"Can we all please remember that we haven't even seen footage from the HVX yet, let
alone is it avaliable to buy! How can you recommend a camera you have never seen or
even read a review on?"

I think most people here would be surprised if it will not live up to the expectations and technical specifications.
 
With the dvx track record, and with the respect Panasonic and its cameras have in both the film and video industry, it seems very unlikely for this camera to fall below expectations. DOn't forget, the main thing panasonic is going to push for the future is P2 and, seing more closely, at IBC next friday, the HVX 200 will be the main focus of the Panasonic Broadcast division. They sure feel confident about the camera- shouldn't we?
 
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