My first xl2 short...

Re: My first xl2 short...

I have another question. I know this is B&W but do you guys think it comes close to having a "film look" or is it really videoy. If it is (videoy) what could I do in post to give it more of a film feel. I've seen lots of posts about this but they all seem to pertain to frame rate (which I did) or color (which I avoided).

Matt
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

The biggest thing that B+W film has over video is dynamic range. There just are not nearly as many grey levels in an 8bit image. There isn't really anything you can do about that though :)
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Mattc

Some part of your video is film. Whatever other's saying it is. My opinion is that a film is a feeling. You make this feeling with your lights, camera angel, acting etc.

I mean this old film look is gone. We don't have it on film longer. I'm talking about this soft oversaturated film like .... Gone wiht the wind - where everything in focus looks like being out of focus even it is sharp in focus. Difficult to explain but you know what I meen.

I was watching Open Range. Some part of it is so clean video. I know they used 35mm but some part of it looks like video.
I mean the colors. Sometimes the gress is "sony green" etc.
So it isn't the interlaced or progressiv issue. Film is everything from colors to acting.

Enemy at the gates - is 100% film, When I was watching Napoleon I had problems to beleave it is film and not video.

Your film/video has at least 2 shoots being 100% film to me.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Ok, well I know one shot is me entering the apartment. What's the other? And, more importantly, what aspects of the other shots took you out of the realm of film and into video?

Matt
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

The other part is the Saxophon-Malboro Light part. I have to see your "film" again to answer your question.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

The first non film impression is the Title at the begining. It is too big. It was like this in old movies, more biger sometimes, but this is a ~1.85:1 movie in modern time. It is animated. I prefer an easy fade inn fade out with much more smaler text.


I refer to the QuickTime Timecode in the player:

00:00:35-00:00:57 - the camera is too low
00:00:58-00:01:08 - just perfect , couldn't do it better. It's film to me.

you have a problem at 00:00:01:10 - you shaking the camera

00:01:10-00:01:36 something doesn't fit. The camera angel, the wide ... I guess the room isn't big to have a better wide shoot.

- 00:01:52 this is very good , film

- bedrom - ?

This is my favorit part: 00:03:06-00:03:13 can't imagine more film than this

00:03:15 -00:03:47 a more shadows than I like but it is good. Maybe a little lower camera position is better here, it is just my taste, don't even leasen to me.

->00:04:11 the same as above

LADIES & GENSTERS here is the 1 mill. $ shoot:

00:04:12 - if you can make an easy inn zoom out here would make it to a 1 bill. $ shoot. The timing is perfect. But in film I guess the director would like to show me what she is seeing from that position first and make and zoom out with this perfect timing.

The rest is good with my special request, a little camera position adjustment.

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BTW - I don't give a flying .... what kind of camcorder other people is using. If something is good than it is good.

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One last thoght: The sound is video not film. The sound not the music, the sound. Film-sound has a different wide in space.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Holy Cow Sergej!! This is way more than I could have hoped for!! I'm making coffee and will go through the little movie again with your notes. This thing may never be great but I'm going to try and make it as good as I can. Thank you so much!!!

Matt
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Well, I've already started re-cutting based on your earlier suggestions, especially regarding pacing. I can already see that I'm going to have to shoot some additional footage.... Ok three questions and then I promise to leave you alone while I work on this.

1) I like the low shot when I walk to the apartment. Is this really bad?

2) Do you still think I should cut in shots of the apartment while I walk in?

3) When you say "00:04:12 - if you can make an easy inn zoom out here would make it to a 1 bill. $ shoot. The timing is perfect. But in film I guess the director would like to show me what she is seeing from that position first and make and zoom out with this perfect timing." I'm not sure what you mean.

I like the title animation, but if it distracts from the film I'll change it. I know what you mean about the sound, I'll work on that too.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Hi Matt,

I've been lurking this site for a while but I registered so I could post to your thread. I'm very impressed with what you've achieved so far. I find it inspirational.

First, I have no issues with Quicktime. The large version opened and began playing instantly. If people are trying to critique how well you've achieved a high end "film look", I'd avoid posting low end versions of your work.

SergeJ is doing a nice job of second by second commentary and probably is far more experienced in cinematography. But let me make a few observations (which may be totally ignored):

I don't think you have the makings of a "Short" here. But you do have a really nice opening scene. You establish something in a compelling and visually interesting way. But it's not a Story or even a Sequence (which is minimally necessary to comprise a "Short"). I've read quite a few books on screenplays, intentionally avoiding McKee until now. But I really think his "Story" would be very helpful to you at this stage.

I don't think you need to reshoot anything. I do think you have one "bad edit" which is a jump cut from the woman's back to a close up from the same camera angle. It was jarring to me as a viewer and brings to mind the adage "change the distance AND the angle."

Some of the shots could be "more filmic" with a bit of post. There seems to be a huge debate in this forum regarding the "film look" of digital media. From the computer side, one thing we learned early on is that you can take a detailed image and make it less sharp, but never the opposite. You're working with good stuff.

Overall, I think you would be more effective by cutting about 1/3 of this out. Not because it's bad, but because you are spending THE AUDIENCE'S time on things you've already helped them "get".

Your shots are great; if they were mine I'd want to languish on them as well. But you will serve your work better by "going in as late as possible and getting out as early as possible." For example, the "Pour a Drink" shot. Very nice. It ties in later and with the overall theme--the musician needing to unwind after a highly charged session. But do you really need to show him putting the bottle back down? I think you've made your point showing him pour the drink.

Now if you take this mindset, "How little can I show to make the point?" you can re-cut into a really compelling scene. As an audience we are given a few important peices of information:

A) A "noir feel" complete with lighting and music style.
B) A musician who needs to unwind despite an attractive mate awaiting in bed.
C) A compassionate mate who summons him "Come to bed sweetheart. I'll help you unwind for the evening."
D) The woman is wearing noticeably too much makeup to bed. This is an excellent opportunity to begin exploring her character (rather than reshoot a more bland version).

So we have two characters who we like. A bit of tension (demands of his job vs caring mate) and we're ready to accept the first part of an impending dynamic tension.

I hope this is somewhat helpful as I'd love to see this progess into an interesting Short. Cannnes awaits!
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Darren,

I'm really honored that you took the time to register to tell me this, I've already been cutting out a bunch of my footage and was wondering if I was doing the right thing - then I logged on and read this and it's like il destino! Anyway, thank you so much. When I get this "SCENE" cut down, I'll repost and hopefully you'll take a look at it again.

By the way, the girl in the film gave me a bunch of books on writing for film and I'm reading them now, but I'll definitely pick up the book you mention.

You said that "Some of the shots could be "more filmic" with a bit of post'. Could you please elaborate on that for me? I would greatly appreciate it. This board rocks!!

Matt
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Matt,

One more book to mention. "The 5 C's of Cinematography" by Mascelli. I hope it was one you were gifted. In the last year I put together 50 books to make up my own "film home skoolin' curriculum," fine tuning it through several people who actually graduated Film School and then transitioned to the business. If I were to distill it down to only 2 books for you, I'd say McKee's "Story" and Mascelli's "5 C's." You seem to have the rest intuitively so far.

I would not worry too much about "Film Look" right now as the most important part is Story. If you tell a compelling story, no one will be questioning the sharpness of the ashtray, or the size of your titles. Film or Video "look" will be unimportant if you nail Story and Continuity. Lack of continuity will "jump" people out of a good story, and lack of a compelling story will leave people questioning your lighting, focus, and composition.

Look at the recent Indie films that have had big releases. In the first few moments you might be questioning production values, but then you are immediately swept into stories.

If you plan to DP for another Director then it IS all about details. If you want to direct your own shorts, then it's the audience (and not technicians) you need to please.


(I'll be away on business for the next week. But I'm anxious to see what you've accomplished in the meantime.)
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Mattc

The low shoot isn't bad. But in BW something is buthering me. Maybe the conrast of the wall and the carpit. And I still want your low shoot but a little bit higher. I'm not shure this is right but you don't have anything to loose.

Easy inn - I should say Easy out, because you are zooming out. Your zoom starts with a "bang". It is fast. Just the first moment. A 1/100 sec. It is a typical video zoom issue. Hard to control the zoom button or ring. It is something your audience don't see they are watching the story.

I mean if you are finished this, than you should try a festival with this movie.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

[quote author=MattC link=board=XL2;num=1099773059;start=15#18 date=11/07/04 at 18:27:57]Moe,

For point 1, should I try to darken it in post, or would I have to reshoot that?
[/quote]
No, when I say "brilliant," I meant brilliantly executed.

For the blind part, my criticism is entirely subjective. Since no one else saw it, I'd say it's fine.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Here is my take

This is a very nice short. The scoring is great and really sets a nice mood and the shots are also wonderfully composed. The lighting is very noirish and not just because its in Black and White; I think you made good use of the kit here.

I admit (as mentioned above) I'd like to see color; maybe a desaturated warm hue. Black and White is not my thing and I think Schindlers List and Young Frankenstein work well but for this I would loved to have seen some warmth.

The shot where the blinds are casting thier shadows is money. What a nice shot. Perfectly lighted.

The shot of the girls backside is money (I know we've seen that before; most recently in Lost in Translation) and that is fine; appropriation and homage is the way to go.

The music had me from the beginning. Nice choice.

I agree with some of the other points in 'changing the camera setup on a few takes to give some more variety to the piece. I would like to have seen some kind of EST SHOT of the building myself but I assume its not the classic 40's apartment building (the magic of cinema).


Overall, I really liked this piece. Some minor tweaks would work better for my individual tastes but thats just IMHO.

Good job! Id like to see more from you.
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Thanks John! I'm glad you liked the music, I know that isn't the focus of this board, but I think that didn't come out to bad. I'm currently in the process of trying to turn this "experiment" into a narrative short and it will be fun to do some more composition based off of these themes.

The biggest problem that I have is that I'm not a writer. So, for example, I'm sitting here in Starbucks writing a response to you instead of flushing out a screenplay. No matter what I write everything just seems so contrived you know? Especially if you try to stay true to the Nior genre where everything WAS contrived...

It'll be a while but I'll post the new short (or next "draft" as it were) when I'm done. Hopefully, there it wont suck...

Regarding the EST SHOT, you're right, it isn't the classic 40' apartment building - but I could find one for an exterior. How would you use it?

Regarding the color issue, I did a very, very stupid thing. I shot this in B&W, instead of desaturating in post... I know, I know, what can I say, I'm new... I have been experimenting with adding a very light sepia tint to the B&W footage however and that has an interesting effect. Maybe I'll post a bit of that to see what you think.

Best,

Matt
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

I suppose there are many ways to use an EST Shot using an EXT Building. What I had in my mind was using an old school (period) building to further set the mood. Immediately give the vibe and feel of the piece. ON that note, if you can find an old school 'iron gate' elevator that would be epic! (I'm going overboard here).

In the future I would always shoot with the option of using color or B + W. (Never limit your options if given the choice!)

I know what you mean about writing; go ahead and write anyway. Hell, after the first draft ask some members here (Ill look as well) for any adice/critique/suggestions.

You can break alot of rules in this genre (Noir)
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Ok, I've decided to expand on this short to make it more of a narrative. I think we've developed a good film noir script and I'm getting excited about doing this. Here's my question.

I shot this footage in 24p 3:2 and imported it into a 29.97 timeline.  If I decide to do this, should I reshoot everything so far in 24p advanced pulldown to avoid getting any artifacts? The reason I'm asking is because I might want to try enter and enter the finished short in some small festivals. Nothing major just some local ones.

What would you reccomend?

Matt
 
Re: My first xl2 short...

Well as I said, I'm not a writer, but here's what I came up with.  It's a bit campy but I think it IS film Noir.  Please let me know what you think.

You should be able to download the file from this link:

http://homepage.mac.com/matthewjcherry/.cv/matthewjcherry/Public/AfterTheGig_Draft_1.pdf-binhex.hqx

You will have to right click to save the file as and then rename the file extension to pdf.

I'm in the process of getting my own website so soon these issues should no longer happen.
 
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