Mike Harvey
Veteran
I haven't had a chance to look at the video, but I have to agree that you're taking some of this rather harsh criticism like a trooper, Jay.
My first "bad client" or am I out of touch?
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Mattykins
Cute Member
Probably Perezhilton.com if I could guess.
And I don't think the criticism is overly harsh at all really. It's criticism. It's supposed to be truthful. There is no sense in sugar coating criticism because no one comes out ahead.
It's kinda like when girls always say "yeah, that dress looks awesome on you". When everyone knows it doesn't. So she buys it thinking it looks good on her...and it really doesn't.
For the guys who don't hang around girls a lot, I have a story.
My old roommate a few years ago wanted to go out clubbing in a college town. Let's be real. Guys usually don't go just to dance. He kinda wanted to pick up a chick. My friend and I are sitting and talking as my roommate is getting ready for his clubbing venture. He really doesn't know what he's doing since he doesn't go clubbing ever. This is an important preface.
A few minutes later he exits the bathroom wearing light brown chinos, black dress shoes (with white socks...), and a brown belt. He has a long sleeve button down that's tucked into his pants on as well. He asks us, "How do I look?" My friend and I look at each other, and then at him, and tell him 'You're an idiot..."
He broke every fashion rule in the book. That and he was going to a bar in a college town, not in LA. He'd be overdressed like woah (albiet really poorly overdressed...but still overdressed). We broke the news to him and said this has gotta change right now.
I hunted around for a different shirt, my friend ran down the hall and grabbed a different pair of shoes and some designer jeans. We found him another belt. We gave him a makeover. He refused to wear the jeans, something about them being too skinny..., but we were able to convince him to wear different things and actually match his clothes. He now looked decent.
We could have said "you look fine." Or been a little nicer and said "you look alright, I'd wear a different shirt" and totally ignore the shoes and belt clash. Or the pants and shoes clash. Or the shoes and socks clash. Actually we could have ignored all of that and just focused on the very minor problem of the shirt while being very supportive all the way. But he would have gone out clubbing still looking like an idiot. Or, next time he went out, he might have worn the same thing thinking it's okay.
Rather, we told him, straight-up, what was wrong. We told him how to fix it. We watched out for him. And he changed and made improvements (at least for that night). Was our criticism harsh? Not really. We told him what was going on and how to correct it.
He didn't end up hooking up with anyone. He told me he made out with some girl but another friend that was with him told me a girl drunkenly kissed him on the cheek. Probably because his pants looked dumb. Or, more likely, because of his personality. We did well that night. His new found fashion sense didn't stick, but my friend and I did the right thing.
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If you haven't looked at the video, then how do you know that this criticism is "rather harsh"?
Pookie
Veteran
Marlon Ladd
Veteran
Yeah, about your friend, you can tell him he looks like an idiot and he will not take it as personal, because he's your friend. I think it would have been a different story if a total stranger said that same thing to him. I'm sure he would have been ready to fight, I know I would. There's something called "constructive" criticism. That means your intent is to help and you can help in a way without being harsh or overly negative. We as humans have things we call feelings and these little things can sometimes determine how we respond to the different things that are thrown our way. If we feel like somebody is being hateful, we tend not to listen and/or actually get upset. Constructive does not mean sugar coating, it's intent is to help. There's a way you talk to people in a respectful way and it's that simple.
Gregg Juke
Well-known member
I agree with Marlon, and anybody else who thought that the critiques were a little harsh.
Not necessarily without some merit, just harsh, and unecessarily so.
I wasn't going to weigh in on this publicly (although I dropped a line to the OP). There's been a lot of verbiage already...
But the facts are, I've seen a LOT worse. And I've seen a lot worse sold for more money. And if this is in the LA area (have I got
that right?), I can't believe anybody would kvetch about this, for what they paid for it most especially.
Yes, a level would have been nice to use on the centered wide-shot tripod. Yes, another shot would have been better, from another angle without the easel in it. Yes, the hand-held would have been better with some support or a monopod, or a steadicam, or even a home-made steadicam rig...
BUT, it's really quite OK, and it most definitely fits the band, and probably what their goals are (gigs, rather than DVD sales of their lackluster versions of Doobie tunes), and I can't imagine why the gal would be so afraid to show it to anybody, other than the fact that it seems to pretty accurately capture their very OK/often very bad performance (could somebody teach her how to play tambourine, please?), and the price for the amount of work already put in is unbelievable. Kudos to Jay for even considering doing another video to "make it right" through customer service that goes way above and beyond!
After all of the blasting this poor guy has taken, I couldn't believe how good most of the footage and editing actually were/are! (I mean, it's definitely $300 worth; it's not "Live from Abbey Road")...
So, yeah, school him all you want; school all of us (I'm here to learn, to). But there is a way to do it, and then there's just harsh, anal, psuedo-superior "in-crowd" cruelty, and I think a lot of the criticism fell a lot closer to the latter than the former.
GJ
Not necessarily without some merit, just harsh, and unecessarily so.
I wasn't going to weigh in on this publicly (although I dropped a line to the OP). There's been a lot of verbiage already...
But the facts are, I've seen a LOT worse. And I've seen a lot worse sold for more money. And if this is in the LA area (have I got
that right?), I can't believe anybody would kvetch about this, for what they paid for it most especially.
Yes, a level would have been nice to use on the centered wide-shot tripod. Yes, another shot would have been better, from another angle without the easel in it. Yes, the hand-held would have been better with some support or a monopod, or a steadicam, or even a home-made steadicam rig...
BUT, it's really quite OK, and it most definitely fits the band, and probably what their goals are (gigs, rather than DVD sales of their lackluster versions of Doobie tunes), and I can't imagine why the gal would be so afraid to show it to anybody, other than the fact that it seems to pretty accurately capture their very OK/often very bad performance (could somebody teach her how to play tambourine, please?), and the price for the amount of work already put in is unbelievable. Kudos to Jay for even considering doing another video to "make it right" through customer service that goes way above and beyond!
After all of the blasting this poor guy has taken, I couldn't believe how good most of the footage and editing actually were/are! (I mean, it's definitely $300 worth; it's not "Live from Abbey Road")...
So, yeah, school him all you want; school all of us (I'm here to learn, to). But there is a way to do it, and then there's just harsh, anal, psuedo-superior "in-crowd" cruelty, and I think a lot of the criticism fell a lot closer to the latter than the former.
GJ
Pookie
Veteran
There are many, many sites around where you can post a video and get the most glowing replies, guaranteed to boost the ego of even the most basic of beginners, even after saying "I know this video sucks but...".
DVXuser has never been a place to have your ego stroked (yea yea gutter minds...), if something is good, you'll hear it, if something isn't, you'll hear that too.
Go to any skateboard site and every video gets "awesome dude... you rule... OMG..." etc. What use is that for learning anything?
This place assumes (not always correctly) that the members are adult enough to actually be able to hear real opinions, and handle them. If you can't take some rough a talk about your work here, you have no hope of making it as a "professional" out in the real world.
Jay asked a question, I assume because he wanted to know what people thought, and to find out if the client may have been right or not. He got answers and was able to understand what everyone was trying to say, and he took it for what it was, people's opinions. Jay has a good future ahead of him because of how he listened and took the critiquing with a positive attitude, the only way to survive in this business.
The numerous people who use the terms "anal, mean, cruel, pseudo-superior (no names) are going to have a much harder time making it through life if they're so easily offended and expect a pat on the back and a job well done for producing less than perfect work.
Snowflakes won't get far in a business where everyone actually IS a critic.
DVXuser has never been a place to have your ego stroked (yea yea gutter minds...), if something is good, you'll hear it, if something isn't, you'll hear that too.
Go to any skateboard site and every video gets "awesome dude... you rule... OMG..." etc. What use is that for learning anything?
This place assumes (not always correctly) that the members are adult enough to actually be able to hear real opinions, and handle them. If you can't take some rough a talk about your work here, you have no hope of making it as a "professional" out in the real world.
Jay asked a question, I assume because he wanted to know what people thought, and to find out if the client may have been right or not. He got answers and was able to understand what everyone was trying to say, and he took it for what it was, people's opinions. Jay has a good future ahead of him because of how he listened and took the critiquing with a positive attitude, the only way to survive in this business.
The numerous people who use the terms "anal, mean, cruel, pseudo-superior (no names) are going to have a much harder time making it through life if they're so easily offended and expect a pat on the back and a job well done for producing less than perfect work.
Snowflakes won't get far in a business where everyone actually IS a critic.
Gregg Juke
Well-known member
Snowflakes, puppies, and hearts not necessary; accurate realism and reality-based critiques are fine, too.
BTW, I'm not a film or video professional (full-time), but you shouldn't assume that I'm a neophyte to arts/entertainment/media and that I (or anybody else) has "no chance in the business if they're easily offended or produce less-than-perfect work" (paraphrased, I know, but _so many_ assumptions made there it's not even worth either of our time to begin to address/properly de-construct them all)-- I've been a professional musician, music business entreprenuer, record producer, journalist, studio owner, songwriter, theater producer/director/musical director, educator (and former broadcaster, among many other things "in the biz") for 30 years. I understand the value of criticism well-made. I've made it, and I've received plenty. And you're right, the OP has an outstanding attitude about the whole ordeal, and skin that is apparently thicker than the hide of a thousand camels... Would that that were the only criteria to "make it in this business."
I don't think a place like this should be a garden of candy-coated "Awesome!"s; but along with Marlon and others, I _do_ think that an ostensibly supportive environment and place where folks can communicate and grow should offer more than "SUCKS!," or trite four-sentence shoot-downs. Again, it is the _way_ in which the real criticisms are presented that makes the whole thing either a worthwhile learning experience, or just an attack perpetrated by various bs-ing blowhards. (Wear the shoe only if it comes in your size)
The point, and this is the last time I'll try to make it before driving back down the boulevard of broken dreams, to leave Hollyrock forever, with my well-deserved, never-make-it-in-this-town ticket for the midnight train to Georgia in-hand ("One way to Palooka-ville")-- There is a way to deliver honest critique and criticism when asked for, and then there is a, "oh, not-right-way, I guess" (props to Steve Martin).
Some of the responses on this thread were wonderful examples of the, oh, not-right-way...
GJ
BTW, I'm not a film or video professional (full-time), but you shouldn't assume that I'm a neophyte to arts/entertainment/media and that I (or anybody else) has "no chance in the business if they're easily offended or produce less-than-perfect work" (paraphrased, I know, but _so many_ assumptions made there it's not even worth either of our time to begin to address/properly de-construct them all)-- I've been a professional musician, music business entreprenuer, record producer, journalist, studio owner, songwriter, theater producer/director/musical director, educator (and former broadcaster, among many other things "in the biz") for 30 years. I understand the value of criticism well-made. I've made it, and I've received plenty. And you're right, the OP has an outstanding attitude about the whole ordeal, and skin that is apparently thicker than the hide of a thousand camels... Would that that were the only criteria to "make it in this business."
I don't think a place like this should be a garden of candy-coated "Awesome!"s; but along with Marlon and others, I _do_ think that an ostensibly supportive environment and place where folks can communicate and grow should offer more than "SUCKS!," or trite four-sentence shoot-downs. Again, it is the _way_ in which the real criticisms are presented that makes the whole thing either a worthwhile learning experience, or just an attack perpetrated by various bs-ing blowhards. (Wear the shoe only if it comes in your size)
The point, and this is the last time I'll try to make it before driving back down the boulevard of broken dreams, to leave Hollyrock forever, with my well-deserved, never-make-it-in-this-town ticket for the midnight train to Georgia in-hand ("One way to Palooka-ville")-- There is a way to deliver honest critique and criticism when asked for, and then there is a, "oh, not-right-way, I guess" (props to Steve Martin).
Some of the responses on this thread were wonderful examples of the, oh, not-right-way...
GJ
Pookie
Veteran
For all the points you make about the harsh, unhelpful replies from people here about Jay's questions, I find it interesting that you have no issues with giving your opinion and critique about the bands performance and the singer in particular. You are happy to attack their "lackluster" versions of songs, and refer to her "very bad performance" as well as her apparent (in your opinion) inability to play a tambourine. It appears that you are happy to apply different levels of "appropriate" comments when it comes from you, yet you demand that the members here refrain from what you yourself consider perfectly reasonable. Pot, meet kettle.
WhiteMonkey
Well-known member
my favorite part so far has been the critiques of the critiques.
The video is bad. You need an additional operator at least. There's some good advice in this thread.
The video is bad. You need an additional operator at least. There's some good advice in this thread.
Mattykins
Cute Member
Gregg enters thread to complain about criticism bordering on personal attack.
Calls members that gave unsatisfactory criticism "bs-ing blowhards"
???
And as a caveat for the story, my roommate wasn't particularly friendly, we mostly just lived together. He wasn't very happy when we told him he dresses poorly.
Sure, can someone give a very long and detailed report of why they don't like a video. Sure, but people have lives. DVXuser for me is usually just click on "new" and skim 2-3 times a day just to keep updated. When people respond with 4 sentences pointing out glaring issues, that's just being efficient.
Yeah, people have feelings. But if the work isn't good, then you have to say so. If he (anyone who posts work online) is too hyper-sensitive about their work, they wouldn't post it online. They'd show close friends who would say it looks awesome regardless of wether it did or not. You need people who will be objective. And that's what he got. Apparently from bs-ing blowhards...
I like snowflakes.
Calls members that gave unsatisfactory criticism "bs-ing blowhards"
???
And as a caveat for the story, my roommate wasn't particularly friendly, we mostly just lived together. He wasn't very happy when we told him he dresses poorly.
Sure, can someone give a very long and detailed report of why they don't like a video. Sure, but people have lives. DVXuser for me is usually just click on "new" and skim 2-3 times a day just to keep updated. When people respond with 4 sentences pointing out glaring issues, that's just being efficient.
Yeah, people have feelings. But if the work isn't good, then you have to say so. If he (anyone who posts work online) is too hyper-sensitive about their work, they wouldn't post it online. They'd show close friends who would say it looks awesome regardless of wether it did or not. You need people who will be objective. And that's what he got. Apparently from bs-ing blowhards...
I like snowflakes.
Doc Bernard
Indie Arms Member
Good point, Matt. This is a site that caters to all walks of life and levels of professionalism. So you have to take that into account when you post something and ask for critique and/or advice. You get it from the hobbyist who just bought his first camera and from a professional who make his living (successfully, I might add) from film-making. Sure, some responses would have better served the OP if they came with ways to correct the issues, but that is life in general.
Personally, with what has been said, weird comments aside, Jay received some really good and poignant advice. And he took it graciously and respectfully. And with that advice, he was shown that the members here really do care about what he is doing and thought enough to get involved. (8 pages!!!)
Jay, you stated earlier that you had been a member for a long time, just not been involved. We need to change that, LOL. Get involved here, when you have time. I think you would make a great addition to the community.
As to the vid, I am not going to comment, as I think it has been well-covered already.
Snowflakes?......
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J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Lol
Such anger in that dude.
Some people you'd just love too meet in an alley. A very dark alley.
I have worked with quite a few people on this site and heard from so many "Wow, you aren't what I expected .." as if they expected me to be some asshole from my forum slams. The reality is, I just tell the truth and unfortunately the truth can hurt.
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J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
................ and when i was quitting smoking, i was a total prick. Yes.
Pookie
Veteran
Marlon Ladd
Veteran
I don't remember anybody saying anything about a pat on the back. I said something about "constructive" criticism and to be respectful. For whomever said that they don't have time to leave an in-depth critique, because you're here an gone, then you probably shouldn't leave one at all. I will reiterate the point again in hopefully simpler terms. Be constructive and be respectful and if that's confusing, I'll find the sticky thread that spells it out. To think that you have to be harsh and overly negative to give a real and objective critique is absolutely not true in the least. Good luck moving forward, Jay.
Doc Bernard
Indie Arms Member
Marion, this is not about "good feelings". If asked for an honest opinion, a person will get them.
And Jay did ask. And received and it was received well. Has he stated that he was upset with the responses? No. Then we should let nature take it's course.
But it is admirable that you are taking the position of ombudsman, though not requested by the OP. Being the conscious of the site is not easy, and I appreciate it.
And Jay did ask. And received and it was received well. Has he stated that he was upset with the responses? No. Then we should let nature take it's course.
But it is admirable that you are taking the position of ombudsman, though not requested by the OP. Being the conscious of the site is not easy, and I appreciate it.
Gregg Juke
Well-known member
To be honest, Doc, this place is sounding more and more like the "Gearslutz" of the film/video scene.
Pissing contest after pissing contest, and talk of "meeting people in very dark alleys."
I guess you could call that constructive if you really wanted to, but now who is enamored of rainbows, puppy-dogs, and snowflakes????!??!?
GJ
Pissing contest after pissing contest, and talk of "meeting people in very dark alleys."
I guess you could call that constructive if you really wanted to, but now who is enamored of rainbows, puppy-dogs, and snowflakes????!??!?
GJ
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