Pookie
Veteran
Maybe this isn't the place for you.....
There are other, more delicate sites around that may be more to your taste.
My first "bad client" or am I out of touch?
- Thread starter jayhink
- Start date
- Status
Maybe this isn't the place for you.....
There are other, more delicate sites around that may be more to your taste.
Gregg Juke
Well-known member
Could be.
Or, maybe this is the kind of place where you could admit that you sometimes come off as a bit ridiculous (although we both know probably not),
defending your bareknuckles and sideburns criticisms as "just the way it is around here" (spits on floor and wipes blood from knife).
Whatever. I did the whole flame wars thing in the 90's. It's Old. Tired. Over.
There is another way. It is up to you to choose, grasshopper.
GJ
Or, maybe this is the kind of place where you could admit that you sometimes come off as a bit ridiculous (although we both know probably not),
defending your bareknuckles and sideburns criticisms as "just the way it is around here" (spits on floor and wipes blood from knife).
Whatever. I did the whole flame wars thing in the 90's. It's Old. Tired. Over.
There is another way. It is up to you to choose, grasshopper.
GJ
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filmguy123
Veteran
I'll say a few things (all I have read is the first post, haven't read the discussion) - just my first impressions/thoughts/reactions:
* Some clients have ridiculous expectations. $300 is a steal for any video work, especially 3 cameras cut together. I probably would have shot the concert for $300 with one camera on a tripod and given them raw footage $300 is pennies for the time it takes to drive out/back, setup, gas, supplies, equipment use, cut the cameras together, and even just meeting and dealing with the client. And on 4th of July holiday? Ha, YEAH RIGHT!
Let that be a lesson for better communication upfront. I've learned the hard way, too. I set crystal clear expectations. I tell them standard rates are $75/hour with me and my gear, plus rates for travel and gas. For late notice booking or holidays, more. Plus editing, supplies, and a general flat charge for the time you spend consulting with them. Of course, many clients can't pay this and with the job market you may often flex, but at least they understand the value they are getting when you say you will do it for dirt cheap on a holiday weekend. Then I set clear expectations about the equipment and what the product will look like, and if available, I show at least 2 different samples with different amounts of equipment or styles. I ask lots of questions (what do you most want to see? What kind of style? What shots are important? How does the quality look on these videos, are you happy with this?) And explain that unless they pay for a second camera man it's one man coverage and there will be cutaways. I even ask their preferences for angles. I do this NOT because I don't know what I am doing, and while some clients may feel "I just want it done!" I always explain up front by saying, "If it's ok with you, I would love to talk over a few options and details. It will only take about 5 minutes, but it will ensure you get exactly the video you want and aren't delivered a DVD that doesn't meet your expectations because I never communicated clearly with you." After saying that, most clients are onboard for taking a minute to talk some details - and most are pretty chill and say "yeah, whatever" - BUT, it is a safety net for you. No surprises that way.
* But second, from video dude to video dude, I also have to say, if you are going to bother to do it at all, I thought both the sound and video both could have been better - and that's something that doesn't take any more time or work, it's just better technique. Something to work on for yourself. I'll go video notes first, then audio.
----> VIDEO: The center angle was pretty poorly framed. The side angle wasn't much better, and was also still a far shot. And the handheld was holy-hot-dang shaky. What's with that? I can hold a camera steadier without any stabilization; at least spend $20 for a shoulder mount rental, or build a DIY-one for dirt cheap, or invest in something DV Multi Rig or what not. The shakiness was bad. I would have done one stage camera at a wide angle with a bit better of aesthetic framing. A second center straight on camera with a better zoomed shot towards the center with the main singer. And get more interesting angles with the (stabilized) hand held, they were pretty dull. And with permission to get in close (I found most bands are very open to this), a wide angle adapter would have been fun, and would have been great around the instruments and drums.
----> AUDIO: Nothing wrong here with the sound board feed, that's the way to do it. BUT, you should have XLRed in a couple mics to your other cameras. A couple cardioids, and left the omni's on, and then you could have added those in to give that live ambient feel. It just feels so fake and 1 dimensional when you have that crystal clear soundboard feed. I usually soundfeed the majority of the balance, but just adding in those other channels subtly really creates a fuller "live" feeling where you can hear the crowd and wind and a little reverb and atmosphere, yet balanced with the majority soundboard feed it sounds clear and professional. Plus if the client doesn't like it, you can simply change the balance or remove the ambient.
Anyway, yeah your video work could have (and should have) been better quality if you are a pro. Something to work on - doesn't take more time in the edit room or much setup, just a little more skill on location. But regardless, what the freak - $300? Someone has to have some balls to complain about that, which probably falls on you for better communication and expecation setting up front. $300 means one camera man and isn't even enough to pay for a 3 camera setup let alone WITH editing! She should be happy she has a video with her in frame at all for $300...
My 2 cents
* Some clients have ridiculous expectations. $300 is a steal for any video work, especially 3 cameras cut together. I probably would have shot the concert for $300 with one camera on a tripod and given them raw footage $300 is pennies for the time it takes to drive out/back, setup, gas, supplies, equipment use, cut the cameras together, and even just meeting and dealing with the client. And on 4th of July holiday? Ha, YEAH RIGHT!
Let that be a lesson for better communication upfront. I've learned the hard way, too. I set crystal clear expectations. I tell them standard rates are $75/hour with me and my gear, plus rates for travel and gas. For late notice booking or holidays, more. Plus editing, supplies, and a general flat charge for the time you spend consulting with them. Of course, many clients can't pay this and with the job market you may often flex, but at least they understand the value they are getting when you say you will do it for dirt cheap on a holiday weekend. Then I set clear expectations about the equipment and what the product will look like, and if available, I show at least 2 different samples with different amounts of equipment or styles. I ask lots of questions (what do you most want to see? What kind of style? What shots are important? How does the quality look on these videos, are you happy with this?) And explain that unless they pay for a second camera man it's one man coverage and there will be cutaways. I even ask their preferences for angles. I do this NOT because I don't know what I am doing, and while some clients may feel "I just want it done!" I always explain up front by saying, "If it's ok with you, I would love to talk over a few options and details. It will only take about 5 minutes, but it will ensure you get exactly the video you want and aren't delivered a DVD that doesn't meet your expectations because I never communicated clearly with you." After saying that, most clients are onboard for taking a minute to talk some details - and most are pretty chill and say "yeah, whatever" - BUT, it is a safety net for you. No surprises that way.
* But second, from video dude to video dude, I also have to say, if you are going to bother to do it at all, I thought both the sound and video both could have been better - and that's something that doesn't take any more time or work, it's just better technique. Something to work on for yourself. I'll go video notes first, then audio.
----> VIDEO: The center angle was pretty poorly framed. The side angle wasn't much better, and was also still a far shot. And the handheld was holy-hot-dang shaky. What's with that? I can hold a camera steadier without any stabilization; at least spend $20 for a shoulder mount rental, or build a DIY-one for dirt cheap, or invest in something DV Multi Rig or what not. The shakiness was bad. I would have done one stage camera at a wide angle with a bit better of aesthetic framing. A second center straight on camera with a better zoomed shot towards the center with the main singer. And get more interesting angles with the (stabilized) hand held, they were pretty dull. And with permission to get in close (I found most bands are very open to this), a wide angle adapter would have been fun, and would have been great around the instruments and drums.
----> AUDIO: Nothing wrong here with the sound board feed, that's the way to do it. BUT, you should have XLRed in a couple mics to your other cameras. A couple cardioids, and left the omni's on, and then you could have added those in to give that live ambient feel. It just feels so fake and 1 dimensional when you have that crystal clear soundboard feed. I usually soundfeed the majority of the balance, but just adding in those other channels subtly really creates a fuller "live" feeling where you can hear the crowd and wind and a little reverb and atmosphere, yet balanced with the majority soundboard feed it sounds clear and professional. Plus if the client doesn't like it, you can simply change the balance or remove the ambient.
Anyway, yeah your video work could have (and should have) been better quality if you are a pro. Something to work on - doesn't take more time in the edit room or much setup, just a little more skill on location. But regardless, what the freak - $300? Someone has to have some balls to complain about that, which probably falls on you for better communication and expecation setting up front. $300 means one camera man and isn't even enough to pay for a 3 camera setup let alone WITH editing! She should be happy she has a video with her in frame at all for $300...
My 2 cents
Gregg Juke
Well-known member
SEE???????? (Look Up)
That's what I'm talking about. FilmGuy123 makes it happen. To the point, broad perspective, plenty of worthwhile critique.
Doesn't come off like a J.A.
Thanks for showing that fine example of how easy it really is to say what needs to be said without starting an actual fistfight, FilmGuy.
You win the award for most timely post of the day, fo shizzle.
GJ
That's what I'm talking about. FilmGuy123 makes it happen. To the point, broad perspective, plenty of worthwhile critique.
Doesn't come off like a J.A.
Thanks for showing that fine example of how easy it really is to say what needs to be said without starting an actual fistfight, FilmGuy.
You win the award for most timely post of the day, fo shizzle.
GJ
Well, I've never uploaded photos to the forum before and they sort of look like thumbnails as I am writing this. Either way, this is tonight's venue, another "stage-in-the-middle-of-nowhere" festival show. I will be arming myself with some of the advice I've received in this thread, which (at nine pages) is much more feedback than I ever thought I'd get. I will also be trying to keep in mind the wishes (however vague) of the client. Here are some quotes from our conversation that night:
"I thought there would be, like, some designs ... or something ... in between songs."
"There weren't enough close-ups on the other band members."
"Can you show the whole band more?"
So, from her standpoint I think I am looking at spreading it around a little more. Less face time for the lead singer (her) and use more quick cuts. Otherwise, her feedback is pretty difficult (for me, at least) to comprehend. Do you want close-ups or wide shots? I can only imagine that the "designs" comment has to do with, perhaps, what she sees when watching pro concert productions ... stage shows, lighting effects, etc. I've shot pageants with single performers on stage and the reviews were great ... but I contribute it in large part to the indoor stage lighting, which changes the whole production value no matter how good or bad my shooting is.
In trying to get more details, the conversation thread always ended with, "Well, I don't know. I really don't know about all this stuff. I just know that the guys would really not like the video." Fair enough. That is the input I have to work with.
As for the forum input, I'll be concentrating mainly on these issues:
-I'll have an additional operator for one of the cameras
-Better angles for the cameras, stationed more in front of the stage (not to the extreme sides)
-Tighter locked-off wide shot on the band
-Both operators shooting from tripod-supported positions (no hand-held cams) (no monopod yet, but it's on my to-get list)
-Audio source from both the board console and from an external mic pointed at the show for a potentially better mix
-Further effort in post with color correction, gamma and matching of shots, contrast, etc. (I truly have only used a primary color correction in my videos, so this will a learning experience)
I want to thank you all for your input. Whether you thought it was decent or thought it was ****, the critiques will only help me to get better. Tonight's shoot will not be perfect, but I hope to see improvement in my skills overall as a result of "putting it out there." It's only fair to come back to the thread and share my progress. Thanks again.
(PS - Thanks for the invitation to become more involved, Doc. I appreciate the post)
Pookie
Veteran
Actually Gregg, it's you who is stirring up a non issue here.
Seems like you prefer sites that only offer positive, uplifting discussions. Your choice, but in the real world, that's not what actually happens.
Anyone asking for feedback best be prepared for whatever may come, otherwise, it might be best to remain a lurker.
You're happy to talk about "this place is sounding more and more like the "Gearslutz" of the film/video scene.
Pissing contest after pissing contest, and talk of "meeting people in very dark alleys.", but you don't have any issues with Lakmir0's posts about John Hudson, only his response to them.
Like I said before. Pot, meet kettle.
Pookie
Veteran
You know Jay, you should make a film about this thread... it's got it all:
Good opening scene.
Plenty of characters.
A few plot twists.
A little intrigue.
Leading man.
Villains a plenty.
A town drunk.
A couple of fight scenes.
It's a little short on a love interest though, but aim it as a war picture and it should work..... :thumbsup:
Good opening scene.
Plenty of characters.
A few plot twists.
A little intrigue.
Leading man.
Villains a plenty.
A town drunk.
A couple of fight scenes.
It's a little short on a love interest though, but aim it as a war picture and it should work..... :thumbsup:
I wouldn't call that "fair enough". That is, however, a harsh reality of having amateur clients. I've worked a couple of projects where I've gotten little to no direction on what was wanted out of the final product, and an answer like you got really only means one thing: she has no clue what she wants, but she figures she'll know it when she sees it.
This is not an easy gig, not even for the most skilled shooters out there. What it generally means, in my experience, is that you have to go in and shoot and shoot and shoot and hope that you get enough footage to make something decent in the end. This rarely turns out well, but with a little pre-planning you can it least make it look pretty.
At this point, your best bet is simply to create your own vision. If you were "the band", what would you want to see out of this video? The last one you did for them kind of shows that you just went in there to point three cameras at the band and see what transpires, then try to edit something out of it. There's no way to storyboard this, but you certainly can "live switch" a three-camera shoot in your brain before you set up. That'll get you a better vision before you shoot, and it will help immensely in setting up the proper camera angles.
Most importantly, think every shot through as you set up each camera: level it, frame it, and try to get it color-matched to the other two as best you can.
Also, since you will have a second camera op... do you have two-way radios? Specifically, two-ways with headsets? You won't have any kind of monitor return, so you won't be able to see each other's cameras, but at least with radio communication you can coordinate when one of you has to make a major move (tape or battery change, relocating, etc.), so that the other camera is rolling on something that can be used. Put the other op on the medium shot, and perhaps have him/her start on the wide at the top of the show for a nice zoom in (fade to medium in the edit), and at the end of the show for a little zoom out.
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Mattykins
Cute Member
Gregg complains about new constructive methods for critique.
Is overtly sarcastic about it: "There is another way. It is up to you to choose, grasshopper."
Someone said you shouldn't comment if you can't put time into it directed towards me. *shrugs. Everything doesn't need a paragraph to get the point across. Some people do have better things to do. Usually, participation here is because we are a family, a community. Not because we want to write a thesis about one particular video. Comment length should not determine one's character.
Also, no one is trying to make Jay cry. We are commenting to help him.
Gregg, honestly, I'm wondering why you are taking such a strong stand here. His feelings aren't hurt. You haven't provided any kind or constructive feedback to anyone, the forum or Jay. In fact, your feedback (calling us gearslutz, calling members worthless...etc) has been far from constructive. Look at your review of the band. You didn't say a single positive thing. I don't call people hypocrites often...but you are acting like one now. Sure, can DVXuser suck? Absolutely. I am a very long time member here, and I've left the board a few times in protest for one reason or another. Bad stuff happens. But this? When someone is legitimately putting in time trying to help out another videographer by being straight-up, and someone comes from the sidelines screaming foul? And then yelling at everyone and calling people names in the name of constructive criticism?
Idk, man. Jay hasn't said anything negative. We haven't called him any names aside from saying 'sucks' and then explaining why. But you are taking all of your rules and disregarding them for your own personal use. "Do as I say, not as I do", at it's finest.
Sometimes the internet doesn't make sense.
Is overtly sarcastic about it: "There is another way. It is up to you to choose, grasshopper."
Someone said you shouldn't comment if you can't put time into it directed towards me. *shrugs. Everything doesn't need a paragraph to get the point across. Some people do have better things to do. Usually, participation here is because we are a family, a community. Not because we want to write a thesis about one particular video. Comment length should not determine one's character.
Also, no one is trying to make Jay cry. We are commenting to help him.
Gregg, honestly, I'm wondering why you are taking such a strong stand here. His feelings aren't hurt. You haven't provided any kind or constructive feedback to anyone, the forum or Jay. In fact, your feedback (calling us gearslutz, calling members worthless...etc) has been far from constructive. Look at your review of the band. You didn't say a single positive thing. I don't call people hypocrites often...but you are acting like one now. Sure, can DVXuser suck? Absolutely. I am a very long time member here, and I've left the board a few times in protest for one reason or another. Bad stuff happens. But this? When someone is legitimately putting in time trying to help out another videographer by being straight-up, and someone comes from the sidelines screaming foul? And then yelling at everyone and calling people names in the name of constructive criticism?
Idk, man. Jay hasn't said anything negative. We haven't called him any names aside from saying 'sucks' and then explaining why. But you are taking all of your rules and disregarding them for your own personal use. "Do as I say, not as I do", at it's finest.
Sometimes the internet doesn't make sense.
ugafan
Looking for a woman
be sure to try to match the cameras before you start so your job will be easier in post.
That's a little delicate...if you were more harsh criticising the guys critising the guys being critical...we could really give this thread legs.
Guys.
Let's dispense with the personal comments about each other, and return to assisting the original poster about ways to improve.
The discussion has moved to something entirely different, and it's get to the edge of a thread close.
3. No Personal Attacks
Personal insults of any sort are not tolerated. . . . Participating in a flame war is uncool even if someone else started it—and just like mom and dad, we’ll give everyone timeouts.
Let move back to contributing and collaborating.
Let's dispense with the personal comments about each other, and return to assisting the original poster about ways to improve.
The discussion has moved to something entirely different, and it's get to the edge of a thread close.
3. No Personal Attacks
Personal insults of any sort are not tolerated. . . . Participating in a flame war is uncool even if someone else started it—and just like mom and dad, we’ll give everyone timeouts.
Let move back to contributing and collaborating.
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Gregg Juke
Well-known member
>>>>Above Stuff about How I'm Wrong<<<<
I disagree
So, about the client that isn't sure what they want, they only know what they don't want (and only then after you do all of the work to show them)... What we do in the audio recording world is try and have at least a few pre-production meetings. It could help to short-circuit these types of situations; but in reality of course, they still come up every once in awhile. The nature of human relations and communication. Re: Jay's situation with the group in question, my vision of the process would go something like this--
1) The client has to bring some examples of work that they think is great (in this case concert/gig DVDs); and maybe some other stuff that is ok/passable, so that she/he/they have tangible examples that you can look at and say "Oh, I can do that," or, "Do you realize that that shoot probably cost $20,000 and used XYZ camera and Super-European Audio System 700?" It gives the two of you an opportunity to discuss aesthetics, tied to the real-world anchor of "This is the equipment that I have, and this is the one-man crew I've got" (all that she can afford). Also, you'll at least have a chance to find out exactly what she means with some of the vague language. It's important at this time that the client not only shows what they like, but that they are somehow able to articulate why they like it. This is an opportunity for the recordist/videographer/producer/independent business-person to guide the discussion a little, if the client still really doesn't have a clue.
2) I'd try to get very specific definitions of things like "More designs between shots." Does she mean transitions? Does she mean laser-lighting (that you obviously aren't providing)? It's really important to nail-down realistic expectations (see #1 above and lots of good suggestions elsewhere in this thread).
3) Contract, Paperwork, Agreement; whatever you want to call it, it would be great to have a piece of paper that you both agree to as the standard for "This is exactly what you'll get for $300." If you agreed to it, and you didn't do it, then you have to come through, or give her a break on price (or do it for free again). This is exactly what Jay is doing (!). If, on the other hand, the fine points of the agreed-upon contract are/were fulfilled, then that is that. "There's your signature, remember? Remember when we talked about realistic expectations?"
I would like to go on record to humbly apologize to Mile Post 8, for not also mentioning that they have a solid rhythm guitar player, the drummer takes care of his equipment, the lead singer did a nice job of not only singing the tune in key, but making an attempt to get the crowd, as it were, involved... If I had been actually making an asked-for critique of the band, instead of using the situation as an example of the challenges presented on Jay's gig, then I would have made absolutely sure that I mentioned not only a few things that the band could work on or improve, but also some positive strengths that they could continue building on. Again, my sincere apologies not only to Mile Post 8, but to their fans everywhere.
GJ
I disagree
So, about the client that isn't sure what they want, they only know what they don't want (and only then after you do all of the work to show them)... What we do in the audio recording world is try and have at least a few pre-production meetings. It could help to short-circuit these types of situations; but in reality of course, they still come up every once in awhile. The nature of human relations and communication. Re: Jay's situation with the group in question, my vision of the process would go something like this--
1) The client has to bring some examples of work that they think is great (in this case concert/gig DVDs); and maybe some other stuff that is ok/passable, so that she/he/they have tangible examples that you can look at and say "Oh, I can do that," or, "Do you realize that that shoot probably cost $20,000 and used XYZ camera and Super-European Audio System 700?" It gives the two of you an opportunity to discuss aesthetics, tied to the real-world anchor of "This is the equipment that I have, and this is the one-man crew I've got" (all that she can afford). Also, you'll at least have a chance to find out exactly what she means with some of the vague language. It's important at this time that the client not only shows what they like, but that they are somehow able to articulate why they like it. This is an opportunity for the recordist/videographer/producer/independent business-person to guide the discussion a little, if the client still really doesn't have a clue.
2) I'd try to get very specific definitions of things like "More designs between shots." Does she mean transitions? Does she mean laser-lighting (that you obviously aren't providing)? It's really important to nail-down realistic expectations (see #1 above and lots of good suggestions elsewhere in this thread).
3) Contract, Paperwork, Agreement; whatever you want to call it, it would be great to have a piece of paper that you both agree to as the standard for "This is exactly what you'll get for $300." If you agreed to it, and you didn't do it, then you have to come through, or give her a break on price (or do it for free again). This is exactly what Jay is doing (!). If, on the other hand, the fine points of the agreed-upon contract are/were fulfilled, then that is that. "There's your signature, remember? Remember when we talked about realistic expectations?"
I would like to go on record to humbly apologize to Mile Post 8, for not also mentioning that they have a solid rhythm guitar player, the drummer takes care of his equipment, the lead singer did a nice job of not only singing the tune in key, but making an attempt to get the crowd, as it were, involved... If I had been actually making an asked-for critique of the band, instead of using the situation as an example of the challenges presented on Jay's gig, then I would have made absolutely sure that I mentioned not only a few things that the band could work on or improve, but also some positive strengths that they could continue building on. Again, my sincere apologies not only to Mile Post 8, but to their fans everywhere.
GJ
Last edited by a moderator:
Mike Harvey
Veteran
Because telling someone their work looks like s**t is harsh, no matter how you cut it (not because of any "special powers", Pookie :2vrolijk_08
Look, the video looks bad (I couldn't see it originally because I was at work, but now that I have there is no way around the fact it simply looks bad), and not being honest about that fact won't do the OP any favors. But calling it s**t is harsh. I'm not saying that's an inaccurate or inappropriate or unwarranted description, just that *is* a harsh. Everyone has made it clear their criticisms weren't meant to be personal, but a lot of folks would have still gotten overly defensive. He took it rather well instead of getting pissy about it. I was simply commending him for that.
That said, I really have nothing to add that hasn't already been covered by numerous others in terms of advice to help him. Hopefully Jay will use this gig as a heckuva learning experience.
Pookie
Veteran
ugafan
Looking for a woman
Hey, at lease I didn't make it a red shirt....:happy:
lol. this photo encapsulates what trying to be an independent filmmaker is like.
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