My first "bad client" or am I out of touch?
- Thread starter jayhink
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This is my first post so I hope I don't tread on toes.
Shooting the close-ups with a camera off the tripod was a major misjudgement, especially since the two long shot cutaways are clearly so steady, it's quite jarring.
I think the ratio of fixed cameras to active cameras is the wrong way around; but this would mean you would need a second cameraman - so your low fee would be split further. Given the size of the band this would be vital.
The video has very little atmosphere and it's really hard to work out how big the audience is.
Shooting the close-ups with a camera off the tripod was a major misjudgement, especially since the two long shot cutaways are clearly so steady, it's quite jarring.
I think the ratio of fixed cameras to active cameras is the wrong way around; but this would mean you would need a second cameraman - so your low fee would be split further. Given the size of the band this would be vital.
The video has very little atmosphere and it's really hard to work out how big the audience is.
Last edited:
reem12
Veteran
I agree with Noel. But at $300 and having 3 cameras I would say she shouldn't even expect a whole lot more, but not knowing industry rates for that set up I can understand why she might had been put off. I think if the roaming cam had not been so shaky you would not have had the major complaint. Also the over cast weather did not help situation much.
A great many IMAG crews would have set this up in much the same way, but for a recorded piece, the treatment of the subject is different. In IMAG, the edit is usually live to screen and never sees the light of day beyond that, so a handheld shot from the pit is perfectly acceptable. Your biggest mis-step might have been in managing the band's expectations. They weren't going to achieve a good concert video with one operator shackled between three or more cameras. It is a feat to have pulled it off at all and, with respect to the future shoot, I'd let her know that you cannot do better without the proper resources.
Echoing a lot of what's been said, leveling the shots would be immensely helpful, and a steadier roaming camera would have made a huge difference. Plus, there was way too much headroom on the locked shots. But that's mostly been covered.
I'd also have set the second camera not terribly far off-center for a medium shot. You have one centered wide, then two shots that come from an extreme angle. It's jarring to cut back and forth between them. You even could have set the third (manned) camera close, but on a slightly opposing angle to the medium shot, and taken your close-ups from a tripod.
As for sound... a couple of things to know about concerts:
1) The room (venue) is going to sound like poop. It'll be lacking a lot of intelligibility in vocals and lead instruments (especially acoustic).
2) The board feed is going to sound like poop. It's going to be mostly vocals and lead instruments, especially acoustic, and will lack percussion and bass and other instruments that are running large stacks/amps.
However, together, the two can play very nicely. Set a mic up for the venue, pointed towards the stage. Record that direct to one of the cameras. Then record the board feed direct to camera. Maybe even set a mic or two near the stage, pointed back toward the audience, for applause, and record directly to another camera. Now, you have the elements to create a usable sound mix in the end. While it still won't be ideal, and will be nothing close to multi-tracking the show, it's going to give you something that none of the individual pieces can give on its own.
All that said, this band just didn't have much presence on stage. Even the monitor mixer looks bored in the background.
I'd also have set the second camera not terribly far off-center for a medium shot. You have one centered wide, then two shots that come from an extreme angle. It's jarring to cut back and forth between them. You even could have set the third (manned) camera close, but on a slightly opposing angle to the medium shot, and taken your close-ups from a tripod.
As for sound... a couple of things to know about concerts:
1) The room (venue) is going to sound like poop. It'll be lacking a lot of intelligibility in vocals and lead instruments (especially acoustic).
2) The board feed is going to sound like poop. It's going to be mostly vocals and lead instruments, especially acoustic, and will lack percussion and bass and other instruments that are running large stacks/amps.
However, together, the two can play very nicely. Set a mic up for the venue, pointed towards the stage. Record that direct to one of the cameras. Then record the board feed direct to camera. Maybe even set a mic or two near the stage, pointed back toward the audience, for applause, and record directly to another camera. Now, you have the elements to create a usable sound mix in the end. While it still won't be ideal, and will be nothing close to multi-tracking the show, it's going to give you something that none of the individual pieces can give on its own.
All that said, this band just didn't have much presence on stage. Even the monitor mixer looks bored in the background.
Just out of curiosity from start to finish how many hours did this take you? And what is $300 divided by your man hours involved?
I want to thank all of you for the comments. These are truly helpful.
As for the few questions asked, I did get some crowd shots in between songs & solos with the handheld on the finished DVD. Also, I did indeed let the venue (mostly blankets on grass) dictate the placement of my cameras. I didn't want to block the view from audience members with any of the cams so I shot from off to the side (save for the widest shot, which was tethered to the sound mix console above). I was on my own with no assistance, so I occasionally had to run off to the locked down cameras and adjust iris, tweak framing, etc.
I am glad I posted this. I've been shooting a lot of small-fries events for so many years now without much variation based on my run-and-gun news/sports training. Shooting a full band in concert is something I've had the least experience with, so my technique needs to be changed (especially for an eight-piece, I'd imagine). $300 or not, I would prefer to improve than complain, so thank you.
I will be using your suggestions at the Saturday event (different, smaller stage & venue... still outdoors) with a conscious effort to put into practice the suggestions you've all contributed.
As for the few questions asked, I did get some crowd shots in between songs & solos with the handheld on the finished DVD. Also, I did indeed let the venue (mostly blankets on grass) dictate the placement of my cameras. I didn't want to block the view from audience members with any of the cams so I shot from off to the side (save for the widest shot, which was tethered to the sound mix console above). I was on my own with no assistance, so I occasionally had to run off to the locked down cameras and adjust iris, tweak framing, etc.
I am glad I posted this. I've been shooting a lot of small-fries events for so many years now without much variation based on my run-and-gun news/sports training. Shooting a full band in concert is something I've had the least experience with, so my technique needs to be changed (especially for an eight-piece, I'd imagine). $300 or not, I would prefer to improve than complain, so thank you.
I will be using your suggestions at the Saturday event (different, smaller stage & venue... still outdoors) with a conscious effort to put into practice the suggestions you've all contributed.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
Yes Jay, you're being a real trouper here, kudos for putting it all out there for comment!
The inevitables?
8 person band + one shooter= a nightmare, no matter how many unmanned cameras.
Amateur entertainers, perhaps not so confident in their performance (or appearance)= a recipe for disaster.
Having an easel/white board on stage won't look good.
Some tips?
If the lead vocalist was the client, (and is the bandleader) give her lots of face time. Lots.
Perhaps put the onstage lockdown shot on the ground (in the "pit") at an angle, fan's-eye view.
To echo others (sorry, it's that important), tripod/monopod on the roving cam.
I wouldn't use a handheld cam in this situation unless it was in the pit, getting vocalists, guitar solos, etc when they're at the front of the stage.
Final analysis?
They got a great deal, you got an excellent learning experience, you'll only get better.
The inevitables?
8 person band + one shooter= a nightmare, no matter how many unmanned cameras.
Amateur entertainers, perhaps not so confident in their performance (or appearance)= a recipe for disaster.
Having an easel/white board on stage won't look good.
Some tips?
If the lead vocalist was the client, (and is the bandleader) give her lots of face time. Lots.
Perhaps put the onstage lockdown shot on the ground (in the "pit") at an angle, fan's-eye view.
To echo others (sorry, it's that important), tripod/monopod on the roving cam.
I wouldn't use a handheld cam in this situation unless it was in the pit, getting vocalists, guitar solos, etc when they're at the front of the stage.
Final analysis?
They got a great deal, you got an excellent learning experience, you'll only get better.
Yes, she got a bargoon for $300, but I can understand why she felt this way. Shooting the band again at a different venue might help to heal relations if it's important to you.
Here are things that I would do differently:
During the Shoot
- Manfrotto 561BHDV-1 Video Monopod : Worth it's weight in gold : How to Use a Video MonoPod
- Shoot lots of tight close-ups when you can. Almost head and shoulders. ( definitely must have a monopod for this )
- Use a wide lens and bring your wide camera much closer to the stage. Avoid shooting at eye-level. Yes you will be in the shot with your other camera, but nobody will care, and it will feel like wide shot. Dress in dark neutral colors.
- Position any kind of camera, even a GoPro HD consumer camera behind the band looking out ( helps when you have an audience ) or looking down ( if you have no audience ).
After the Shoot
- Use image stabilization software if any of your shots have that bad shaky cam look
- Color and gamma correct all your footage to make it match. It's actually fairly easy to do, but you will need to practice to get fast at this.
Here are things that I would do differently:
During the Shoot
- Manfrotto 561BHDV-1 Video Monopod : Worth it's weight in gold : How to Use a Video MonoPod
- Shoot lots of tight close-ups when you can. Almost head and shoulders. ( definitely must have a monopod for this )
- Use a wide lens and bring your wide camera much closer to the stage. Avoid shooting at eye-level. Yes you will be in the shot with your other camera, but nobody will care, and it will feel like wide shot. Dress in dark neutral colors.
- Position any kind of camera, even a GoPro HD consumer camera behind the band looking out ( helps when you have an audience ) or looking down ( if you have no audience ).
After the Shoot
- Use image stabilization software if any of your shots have that bad shaky cam look
- Color and gamma correct all your footage to make it match. It's actually fairly easy to do, but you will need to practice to get fast at this.
Philip Goetz
Well-known member
I vote for one of the band members not liking the performance. I got the "sore throat" thing once and my footage went nowhere. Here's my 4th of July: http://vimeo.com/27182829
Well, after watching that, I can understand why they didn't purchase the product.
1. There's not a single shot of the crowd, which doesn't really help the video, because the setting's pretty boring and the band isn't particularly lively.
2. None of the clips seem to match, in terms of white-balance or exposure.
3. The audio sounds really bad, and there's no audience sound, to boot.
4. The wide shot is aimed way too high (and wide), and isn't level.
5. The handheld shots are really jumpy.
That being said, I would've buy a hour-long DVD of that band, even if the video and sound quality was spectacular...
1. There's not a single shot of the crowd, which doesn't really help the video, because the setting's pretty boring and the band isn't particularly lively.
2. None of the clips seem to match, in terms of white-balance or exposure.
3. The audio sounds really bad, and there's no audience sound, to boot.
4. The wide shot is aimed way too high (and wide), and isn't level.
5. The handheld shots are really jumpy.
That being said, I would've buy a hour-long DVD of that band, even if the video and sound quality was spectacular...
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
No personal attack intended
I don't think it's worth $300.00 either. It looks like ****. Everything about it, the lack of operators, the contrast and color and levels ............. it looks like something I'd see on Public television .
It's just bad in every way.
@ goetzpd
I liked your 4th vid; pretty tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I don't think it's worth $300.00 either. It looks like ****. Everything about it, the lack of operators, the contrast and color and levels ............. it looks like something I'd see on Public television .
It's just bad in every way.
@ goetzpd
Mattykins
Cute Member
I gotta side with JR here. I wouldn't be very happy if that was the product that I got back. Regardless of 300 dollars or not.
Your master shot is not only crooked, but you aren't even centered on the band. Your stage right camera is is pretty worthless where it is. And your main camera is all over the place.
I mean, I don't want to sound like a terrible person, but it isn't worth 300 bucks. It looks rushed. I don't want to be harsh. But I'd raise an issue if I had to pay for that. Just sayin'
Also, I don't know why everyone is saying "get audience shots! You're video is lame without audience shots!" Unless the audience is really grooving or rocking, why cut to a bunch of people sitting and chilling out?
If you have a band like this, with an audience like that, then sure, grab shots showing the audience and get the crowd noise. That's awesome. People are cheering, there are flags, it's pretty sweet.
Also, perfect example of when to use audience noise:
But sometimes audiences just screw everything up: (skip to 2:25, I tried to embed with the time specific URL but it didn't let me.)
I'd say keep the audience out unless you have a really really good reason to have them in there. Like, if they are awesome.
Your master shot is not only crooked, but you aren't even centered on the band. Your stage right camera is is pretty worthless where it is. And your main camera is all over the place.
I mean, I don't want to sound like a terrible person, but it isn't worth 300 bucks. It looks rushed. I don't want to be harsh. But I'd raise an issue if I had to pay for that. Just sayin'
Also, I don't know why everyone is saying "get audience shots! You're video is lame without audience shots!" Unless the audience is really grooving or rocking, why cut to a bunch of people sitting and chilling out?
If you have a band like this, with an audience like that, then sure, grab shots showing the audience and get the crowd noise. That's awesome. People are cheering, there are flags, it's pretty sweet.
Also, perfect example of when to use audience noise:
But sometimes audiences just screw everything up: (skip to 2:25, I tried to embed with the time specific URL but it didn't let me.)
I'd say keep the audience out unless you have a really really good reason to have them in there. Like, if they are awesome.
Pookie
Veteran
Well in your first post you say "About me: I've been shooting video since 2000, where I was a local news and sports shooter for seven years. I started doing side work (weddings, government, corporate, etc.) in 2004. I've been in business solely for myself since 2008. I'm in a small market and my productions are meat-and-potatoes ... still shooting SD using three DVX cameras (an original, an 'A' model and a 'B' model). I do not take on projects that are better suited for higher end production companies.".
You seem truly confused as to why they didn't like your results, if the clip you posted is actually representative of your work i.e.: you say you were a "news shooter", I think you need to re-evaluate your market. You shoot with three cameras... but that seems to be simply because you have three cameras, as opposed to you knowing and understanding that you need three operators to shoot a concert, not just lock two down and walk around with the third.
If you've been shooting professionally since 2008, you should know shooting a concert that way won't work, and is guaranteed to fail. There are eight people in the band, two locked down cameras and one hand held just won't cut it.
I tried to tell you the problem in my first post:
Outdoor concert.
3 cameras.
2 locked down.
1 operator.
So your question was: My first "bad client" or am I out of touch?
No they're not a bad client [they are seriously cheap though], but yes, you're out of touch.
You seem truly confused as to why they didn't like your results, if the clip you posted is actually representative of your work i.e.: you say you were a "news shooter", I think you need to re-evaluate your market. You shoot with three cameras... but that seems to be simply because you have three cameras, as opposed to you knowing and understanding that you need three operators to shoot a concert, not just lock two down and walk around with the third.
If you've been shooting professionally since 2008, you should know shooting a concert that way won't work, and is guaranteed to fail. There are eight people in the band, two locked down cameras and one hand held just won't cut it.
I tried to tell you the problem in my first post:
Outdoor concert.
3 cameras.
2 locked down.
1 operator.
So your question was: My first "bad client" or am I out of touch?
No they're not a bad client [they are seriously cheap though], but yes, you're out of touch.
tired
Well-known member
ABSOLUTELY!
I think it was a tough gig - the telling thing for me is that she couldn't explain why she didn't like it. If you don't like something there's a reason - you may not like to say it (or accept it) but it's there. In this case I think it's down to how she looked and performed on the day - if fact the whole group looked as though they were just going through the motions but I don't know of any angle that would have made her look good (harsh but...)
I think you could come really close to the problem by starting with the words "I hated the video because I looked ........ (insert derogatory term here)
I agree with everyone's comments about the lack of CC and mix of shots and I would have thrown in crowd shots no matter what they looked like in this case. what would I have done? I hate leaving camera's unattended if I can get away with it but if they were safe I'd have a wide shot in the centre just covering the main stage area and the other 2 cameras on sticks doing close up and mid shots. You should be able to move between the 2 front cameras, lock one off on a shot of the 2 singers and use the other camera for close ups & crowd, then lock that off on a medium shot and do the same with the other camera. With a band and particularly a singer lacking charisma I guess all you can do is get lots of crowd shots (there must have been somebody enjoying the show) and lot's of close ups of fingers on guitars, hands on mikes etc.
The $300 fee is dirt cheap but once you've accepted that, you have to give it your best and spend as much time in post as it needs. I know that the fee doesn't even cover the equipment rental but she doesn't know that. You're the professional, if you take the job on that money, you're offering to do your best, stabilising shots, matching colour etc etc is part of that.
I'd like to chime in here again to thank everyone who has taken the time to comment ... and a big thanks to those posting advice, examples and links. I've been a forum member for almost four years but I've never posted much. 40 replies to my original post is pretty amazing - I'm receiving a free education from you all & it's much appreciated.
Your constructive criticism will go a long way to improving what I am doing.
Your constructive criticism will go a long way to improving what I am doing.
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