Moving from Mac to PC?

Grug

Grug

Veteran
Hi guys,

Well after about 7 years of scrambling, and doing what I can to stay on Mac OS (mostly due to FCP and Prores), I find myself at an interesting crossroads. The last few years I eked by with a Mac Pro 5,1 stuffed to the gill with the newest tech that I could put it in.*

Then FINALLY the new Mac Pro arrives… and it’s literally twice the price I’d feared. Now I know that this isn’t really an Apple tax at all, it’s an intel tax for those Xeon components, but the cost is still wild. Being as tight-arsed as a literal month of spreadsheeting computer components can make a person, I’ve poured over performance benchmarks and scrambled to assemble 3rd-party GPU and NVME components to help make the upgrade as financially viable as possible, and eke as much bang-for-buck as possible out of the system.

Even so, I still end up with $16,000-$18,000 AUD system (depending on the final mass storage solution) and that’s not even for anything all that fancy (and INCLUDING a 6% Small Business discount):

- 12-core XEON
- 96GB RAM (3rd Party)
- 2x Radeon VII 16GB (3rd Party)
- 1TB Boot Drive
- 4TB NVME Cache Drive (3rd Party)

I’ve basically written off my brain for the past month creating spreadsheet after spreadsheet of different component costs and configurations. Weighing up Mac Pro options compared to Macbook Pro 16” + dual eGPU options, compared to PC-based Threadripper 3 builds.

After all of that back and forth and mental anguish, I ultimately decided that I just wanted the solidness, reliability and simplicity of sticking with the Mac Pro. So I girded my loins, and put in an order with Apple while I was still eligible to get a 12-month interest free deal on it…

And now it appears the credit company they’re using won’t front me more than 25% of the total interest-free.* Which puts me in a bind. I’m not really willing to put that much money down in one hit. And the last-minute trauma of the purchasing dramas (after SO much build-up to actually deciding to do it), has me thinking that maybe this is the universe telling me it’s finally time to go back to PC for a while.

Looking into it further I learnt that you can now (fairly) easily encode Prores on Windows now thank to Adobe. And I gather you can actually do it from Media Encoder, which I understand is free(?), so you don’t even need to have a CC subscription to do so (I only subscribe to CC when I have projects that require me to use Premiere for a month or two).

And if that’s the case, that kinda eliminates one of the biggest deal-breakers of Windows for me (because practically every master file I deliver these days is Prores).

Software-wise, it’ll suck having to re-buy some things. But since probably 99% of my time on my current Mac Pro is spent either in Davinci, Chrome, or Microsoft Office there’s really not all that much to tether me to MacOS anymore (especially since even upgrading the 5,1 to Mojave seems fraught with danger and Catalina is a no-go).

All of which is a very long and convoluted way to bring myself around to asking the question: what’s making the move to PC like?

- Can you preview Prores or .MXF files in the Windows Explorer browser like you can with the Preview app in OSX? Does Windows generate thumbnails for you? Or are there any 3rd party applications that will give you this functionality.

- How painful is working with Prores on PC in general these days? (are there any particularly frustrating things about it?)

- How bad is the malware/virus situation on Windows these days? I don’t really visit any dodgy websites in my old age, but it was a constant issue for me back in the day (and that was with considerable vigilance) and it’s something I haven’t had to worry about for the past 14 years that I’ve been on Mac.

- For those of you who have made the move, is there anything in particular you miss about OSX?

- And is there anything you particularly hate about Windows?*

- Are the CONSTANT software updates on Windows still a thing? Are you able to turn them off?


I’d appreciate any advice about the transition that anyone can offer. Even at the significantly cheaper cost of moving to a 24-core Threadripper 3 system, it's still a near $9,000 outlay.

Cheers
 
Acrovid Intertake can handle Prores transcodes for delivery. Modest cost high quality general transcoding utility.
Reading or editing Prores on Windows is not a problem, only exports. That seems to be changing slowly too. Apple is being a bit less restrictive with 3rd party licensing.

https://acrovid.com/

I can share a Prores clip from it for evaluation if you like.
 
I got a Dell laptop and it eats my 2011 Imac (which cant run resovle 16 so is kind of dead for me) for $800

It seems solid.

Only thing I miss is my imac screen

If I get another desktop it will be PC
 
Yeah, problem is that Apple don’t have a modular Mac for those of us who don’t need Xeons and EC ram etc... i was kinda ready to buy the new Mac Pro too expecting to be able to get a fairly good configuration for maybe $5000.
Guess I’m sticking with my Hackintosh for a while.
Which I can recommend, btw!
 
Made the move a few years ago, only thing I miss is the nice looks and the build quality Apple has.
What I don't miss is the dependence of Apple for all kind of stupid cables and their relatively high prices.

PC is now more interesting because AMD has taken the lead in processors and speed. And it seems Apple missed that boat.

Have a look at https://www.pugetsystems.com/

They have a ton of information about PC's. Esp. Editing systems.
As far as I know Adobe Encoder is not free.
 
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I also have a 2012 Mac Pro (12 core, High Sierra) that is stuffed to the gills with nearly every bit and bob to keep it relevant, lol. But I also recently landed a regular client who has me working on site using their PC's. Some quick observations:

Just a few shortcut keys, some menu layouts, and very minor OS differences... very easy to get used to after a couple of days. Windows 10 is very stable. That's about it.

On PC, you can still run GPU's that use CUDA (> Apple's Metal garbage), and while Premiere doesn't seem to offer ProRes export (could just be the way the machines I use are setup), you can definitely export ProRes in Adobe Media Encoder (and queue it directly from Permiere). I'm not using Resolve on those PC's, so I can't speak to that, but at that point if you have to export your graded clips to Cineform or DPX because ProRes isn't an option, it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me if the alternative is to drop $k's more on an Apple super computer.

Good luck going forward with your purchase. I know it's agonizing as hell.
 
I haven't found working with ProRes on Win 10 to be an issue at all these days. With Resolve or Vegas Pro I just work natively mainly with XAVC for both ingest and export. Both Apps will take in ProRes natively on Win 10 and if you have the Cineform codec installed both can output Cineform files. If someone wants files converted to ProRes or a master file export to ProRes Magix Vegas Pro versions 14-15-16 and 17 can all export "ProRes" files. The inverted "_"s are there because like with Acrovid's Intertake there a number of apps and NLEs on Windows that can output fully compliant Apple ProRes file that pass QC muster with broadcasters even though those apps aren't officially Apple ProRes licensed . Interrogate any of the "ProRes" files from Intertake or Vegas Pro with FileInfo and they come up as bona fide ProRes. What more can I say. Incidentally Adobe now supports export of "officia"l ProRes files on Windows.

https://helpx.adobe.com/au/premiere-pro/kb/video-apps-export-prores.html

With Win 10 on a 5GHz overclocked i7 8700k with an Nvidia GTX1080i I have full 4K res with full frame rate playback with grades, LUTs, transitions etc of 500Mbps 4K 50p 10-bit 422 XAVC with no issues. This is on a US$2000 self build PC. Pretty reasonable value for the performance capability.

Chris Young
 
I've been editing Canon C200 raw footage (via Canon Raw Development) on DaVinci Resolve 12 (free version) on a windows 7 machine. I can't believe I can even do this!? but it's still a massive headache so I'ma going to customize a PC pretty soon. I'll probably keep the computer just to keep using the outright Premiere Pro I bought rather than the subscription version.

Can anyone give input for Mark's other questions?

- How bad is the malware/virus situation on Windows these days?

- Are the CONSTANT software updates on Windows still a thing? Are you able to turn them off?

Thanks.
 
If you want to keep your editing computers as save as possible (mac and PC) it might be a good idea not to connect them to the Internet.
Malware/virus is the same, don't use your editing machine to browse and download and click,

But I do both, Internet is just too handy, viruses no problem (so far).

Use an extra non-administrator user-account to keep the PC safe. At each change your pc will ask you permission and the administrator password to change settings or install software. This way you can you protect yourself.

- virus malware needs attention and a scanner.
- windows 10 updates can be turned off. But you can manage them too.

This is an article about Win 10 and updates. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3199077/windows-10-a-guide-to-the-updates.html
 
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Malware, virus issues are pretty well controlled unless you go poking around in areas of the web where malware hangs out. Malware more so than virus seems to e a bigger issue these days. Invest in Malwarebytes and install the free Sphinx Widows 10 Firewall Control. Those two in conjunction with Windows Defender, which is an integral part of Win 10 will keep you pretty safe and sound. In fact Windows Defender is surprisingly good and draws very little in the way of PC resources. Firewall Control will stop anything trying to go out that shouldn't and will also block any suspicious entry attempts that are to trying to gain access to your PC.

You can through certain settings in Services turn of auto updates though MS are pretty tricky and after a period of time even if you have turned updates off it will turn itself back on again. If you want a simple way to stop them and have control over the updates use something like Win Update Stop. Remember though that will stop security updates to Windows Defender. I usually turn on updates once a week to ten days to update. Haven't had any issues with Win 10 updates as of late. In earlier version of Win 10 prior to the big 1903 upgrade there were some minor issues people encountered but never had any problems here. In fact Win 10 is proving to be rock stable here. No dramas at all.

https://www.malwarebytes.com/lp/sem...XRT4OpIZ7rb6kDOffRGscx13WT9AYzyRoCq3wQAvD_BwE

The following are free though you can get a paid version of Firewall Control but I've never found it necessary.

https://www.sphinx-soft.com/Vista/order.html

https://www.novirusthanks.org/products/win-update-stop/

Chris Young
 
Grug said:
...Weighing up Mac Pro options compared to Macbook Pro 16” + dual eGPU options, compared to PC-based Threadripper 3 builds.....I learnt that you can now (fairly) easily encode Prores on Windows now thank to Adobe. And I gather you can actually do it from Media Encoder, which I understand is free(?), so you don’t even need to have a CC subscription to do so (I only subscribe to CC when I have projects that require me to use Premiere for a month or two)....And if that’s the case, that kinda eliminates one of the biggest deal-breakers of Windows for me (because practically every master file I deliver these days is Prores)....since probably 99% of my time on my current Mac Pro is spent either in Davinci, Chrome, or Microsoft Office there’s really not all that much to tether me to MacOS anymore....what’s making the move to PC like?...is there anything you particularly hate about Windows?*....Even at the significantly cheaper cost of moving to a 24-core Threadripper 3 system, it's still a near $9,000 outlay...
Click to expand...

I've moved between Windows and Mac several times. In general don't be afraid of Windows - you can get the job done and there are many more 3rd-party utilities which let you customize the environment. A properly configured system using quality Windows hardware is very reliable. In fact you could argue the Windows code base is probably better tested than MacOS due to the rigorous server usage. This finds lots of bugs related to threading, file system, etc. You won't see any Macs on a list like this: http://www.tpc.org/tpce/results/tpce_last_ten_results5.asp

OTOH a few things in Windows are still frustrating. The update process is cumbersome, more frequent and more intrustive than MacOS. However you get used to it.

Due to the Windows registry you cannot blow away the OS and have all your apps sitting there afterward. OTOH that's not a common situation on either Mac or PC.

If you are truly spending 99% of your time in Resolve, Chrome, Office, etc, that UI experience is almost identical between Mac and PC.

My doc team workflow from acquisition to delivery is all ProRes based, so in theory we could switch to Windows but currently we are Mac based. I don't have recent familiarity with Windows tools for reproducing "Quick Look" and/or "Preview" functionality, but they probably exist. The nice thing about Macs is they all have that, you need not install some special utility.

You could probably get an 8-core iMac 27 with Vega 48 which was much faster than your old Mac Pro. Also there are often deals on the base model iMac Pro. It is very quiet and has lots of ports including 4 x Thunderbolt USB-C, 4 x USB-A, and 10 gig ethernet.

You are right a new custom PC has good specs, the question is whether that produces faster real-world performance for your Resolve-centric workflow, vs an updated Mac. E.g, when browsing 4k material using Resolve 16, what is the latency to JKL input on a 24-core Threadripper PC vs an 8-core iMac 27? What is the difference in encoding to a 4k H264 output file? If it was Premiere it might struggle, but Resolve is very fast in recent versions. The fact you are Resolve based opens up an easier migration pathway between Mac and PC.

If moving from Mac to PC you will miss a few things but this is compensated somewhat by a richer application software environment. E.g, some best of class utilities like TreeSize Pro are only available for Windows: https://www.jam-software.com/treesize
 
ProRes on Adobe Premiere and Media Encoder works perfectly for me on Windows 10. It's now my default delivery codec, as pretty much everyone knows what it is and can handle it properly. It's now become the de facto finishing medium in a huge part of the media industry.

I made the switch from Mac to PC about 5 years ago and it's mostly been a great experience. If you're going to spend a lot of money on a good workstation, I'd recommend going with something like Puget Systems instead of building it yourself. It'll be a little more expensive than DIY, but the service you get is worth it, especially if something goes wrong with the computer.

I do miss the simplicity of Preview in MacOS, though. That alone makes me wish Macs were cheaper.
 
On the hardware side of things you should take a look a the brand new AMD Ryzen 7 4800H powered laptops that have 8 CPU cores on board that provide "desktop power" in a relatively compact laptops. ( they are also priced quite reasonably )


If you want to go with a new desktop machine, then your best option is the new AMD Ryzen 9 3950x CPU with 16 cores. This CPU costs about $750 US, so you should be able to buy a desktop PC powered by this CPU for about $2,000 US.


All of these AMD products use PCI 4.0 architecture like the new Mac Pro does, so internal or external drive speed can be as high as 15,000 MB/Sec depending on your drive configuration. Some AMD 570 motherboards come with empty internal PCI 4.0 RAID cards that can hold up to 8TB of NVMe of storage.

If you have the budget there are the AMD Ryzen Threadripper CPUs, with their top of the line 3990X CPU offering 64 cores at $4,000 US. This is the CPU that will likely equal or outperform the fastest Mac Pro configuration. You are probably looking at a complete machine priced in the $4K - $8K range depending on how you have it configured. ( ThreadRipper motherboards top out at 512 GB of RAMM )


And one last feature that both AMD Ryzen and ThreadRipper motherboards have is future compatibility. AMD motherboards are designed to be compatible with the next 2 - 3 generations of CPU, so you could still upgrade to something more powerful 3 years down the road with almost no changes to your desktop computer.
 
I switched to pc after 10 years of using Apple. No regrets at all. I recommend you to have a look at Kyno for viewing clips and transcoding to prores. I think it's a very good piece of software for organizing footage and making subclips.
 
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