motion blur film vs video look
- Thread starter Ruairi Robinson
- Start date
dude man ... I should have clarified...the motion looks like ****. Thats why I posted in here. The colors and the sharpness and detail are superb...the the motion made me sick...with disappointment.
I saw it last night.
It looks like a history channel re-enactment in parts. If you watch it you won't have to wait long to see what I mean. The opening scene is a good example.
I saw it last night.
It looks like a history channel re-enactment in parts. If you watch it you won't have to wait long to see what I mean. The opening scene is a good example.
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ProLost
Well-known member
The importance of this cannot be overstated. All the hard work of creating a bitchin' digital cinema camera that shoots 24p can be undone by the simple choice to use a greater-than 180º shutter. I had hoped that audience cries of "it looks like video" at scenes from Collateral and others would have meant the end of this, but it seems like camera crews still haven't learned. It seriously bums me out. Every new film that takes the risk of shooting with a digital camera is an ambassador of the new technology, and people are unwittingly hurting the cause by making this mistake in the name of gaining a stop.Graeme_Nattress said:
-Stu
Brook Willard
Well-known member
What's the Genesis's native sensitivity?
[edit: ISO 400, can be pushed to 1600... though presumably it looks wretched at that level]
[edit: ISO 400, can be pushed to 1600... though presumably it looks wretched at that level]
Ruairi Robinson
Member
ProLost said:
This is what I've spent the last couple of years wondering (and actually what you've said here confirms what I always assumed was the case)
Good to hear this is the explanation, rather than some other technical problem with the camera itself. **** that extra stop. I'd prefer more noise.
if the red camera has options of greater than 180 degree shutter angle, it needs to be made crystal clear to EVERYONE that uses it, that if you do this it's gonna look like video - which is exactly the look we are all presumeably desperately trying to avoid...
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
The looks of video, at the very high quality that RED can provide is an equally valid aesthetic that some people will choose (rightly) to use. Some people will also want to shoot it at 50p or 60p with an open shutter to get beautifully smooth motion.
Gibby
Red Savant
Well said Graeme...
An integral part of the pre-visualization stage of any production is to use abstract reasoning to picture how to best tell the story you want to tell. With those production values in mind, then you want to keep that image of aesthetics in mind throughout the production and post production process. Every story doesn't call for a 24p filmic presentation to convey the meaning you want to the viewer. The subject matter of some productions will call for no 24p filmic images whatsoever. Others will require all 24p filmic images. Others still will call for a wide mixture of frame rates and looks. To stubbornly take a position of "if it ain't 24p filmic, it ain't right" simply limits the breadth of production values you can effectively produce. If RED One is flexible and adaptable enough to be setup to achieve any kind of results, filmic or video-like, that simply expands the creative (and revenue generating) potential of the camera for us, the users. The biggest challenge will then be for users to have broad enough skill sets, flexible enough attitudes, and creative enough brains to match the potential of the camera.
An integral part of the pre-visualization stage of any production is to use abstract reasoning to picture how to best tell the story you want to tell. With those production values in mind, then you want to keep that image of aesthetics in mind throughout the production and post production process. Every story doesn't call for a 24p filmic presentation to convey the meaning you want to the viewer. The subject matter of some productions will call for no 24p filmic images whatsoever. Others will require all 24p filmic images. Others still will call for a wide mixture of frame rates and looks. To stubbornly take a position of "if it ain't 24p filmic, it ain't right" simply limits the breadth of production values you can effectively produce. If RED One is flexible and adaptable enough to be setup to achieve any kind of results, filmic or video-like, that simply expands the creative (and revenue generating) potential of the camera for us, the users. The biggest challenge will then be for users to have broad enough skill sets, flexible enough attitudes, and creative enough brains to match the potential of the camera.
Gordon Prince
Well-known member
(using the Red One) Will it be possible to have the same for the same results?evinsky said:
Ruairi Robinson
Member
Gibby said:
umm... ok, well put it this way - most people like the way film at it's best looks. If not everyone knows that this shutter angle thing is what is gonna make footage shot digitally look like video, when that's the look they are trying to avoid, well golly, someone ought to tell 'em. It's not about being closed minded. It's about being able to achieve the aesthetic look you are aiming for.
I'm sure there are plenty of other valid looks you can achieve, but they aren't of interest to me for the projects I'm going to be doing at any stage in the foreseeable future. Smooth video motion is outside the bounds of what I'm looking for, as is shooting fields. And on red.com it says "Red Digital Cinema" not red digital video. If that's how the sales pitch goes, at least make that the aesthetic that's easiest to achieve by default.
I'm not even sure there's an argument here - red is providing the options for us all to be happy.
Blah.
Nick_Shaw
Well-known member
Ruairi Robinson said:
I'm sure that 180 degree shutter angle will be the default setting, or rather 48th of a second at 24 fps. As Stephen Webb said earlier in the thread, it might be an idea to have the option to set the shutter speed in degrees rather than fractions of a second, so that when you change frame rates the effective shutter angle remains constant.
Nick
Jim Arthurs
Well-known member
evinsky said:
Interesting aside... had dinner with some of the motion control guys from FXWest last spring, after their work on this film... there was a moment when they were setting up for a shot and asked the DP what the shutter angle was, the DP told them 360 degrees... it was a few minutes of head scratching for them, because the moco programming was set up only for film cameras and "real" shutter openings...
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
Yes, shutter in degrees. And Yes, we're digital cinema, not digital video, but who is to say that digital cinema automatically equals 24p with 180 shutter? That's a cultural artifact as much as anything else. To me, digital cinema could very well be 4k@50p and 360 shutter. Would look beautiful.
Graeme
Graeme
ProLost
Well-known member
Graeme_Nattress said:
Yes, it will look like the sharpest, crispest soap opera you've ever seen.
Sorry—you could well be right that future audiences will get over the uncinematic aspects of high frame rates, but I don't think I ever will. Less is more. We've already seen high-res 60p fall on its face with Showscan though, so who knows?
-Stu
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
Nope, not a soap at all. That's as much lighting and and edge enhancement as anything else. It's a cultural thing. In England we grew up watching good quality, well lit drama on video and it doesn't look wrong, and it doesn't look un-cinematic.
Stephen W
Well-known member
Graeme_Nattress said:
I've always hated it and thought it looked cheap and rubbish
Whenever we shoot on film, it just looks right - on video I have to agree with ProLost, it just looks like a soap! Take Doctor Who for example...
On the plus side though, recent BBC productions shot in HD look a helluva lot better (just a shame about the content - yes Robin Hood, I'm talking about you).
Interestingly the Jim Cameron/Vince Pace combo are talking about 3D shot at (I think, if I'm remembering correctly) 72fps which would look VERY smooth. I'd happily settle for 4k@50p Graeme, if you can make it work onboard of course :beer:
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
So you want 4k50p on camera? That's currently impossible, but my job is to solve the impossible We'll have to see if I can think how to do that then, won't we?
Graeme
We'll have to see if I can think how to do that then, won't we?Graeme