monitor confusion

F

fritz

Well-known member
Ok, I know this has been discussed before, and I've read other threads, but I'm still confused.

I know that it's considered essential to have a production monitor (/tv for those of us low on cash) while editing in order to accurately colour correct etc.

I guess my question is, why can't we calibrate/set up our computer monitors so that they accurately represent colour? I mean, since most new tvs are LCD anyway, how is that so different to an LCD computer monitor? Do I really need to do my colour correction on a CRT screen?
 
fritz said:
I guess my question is, why can't we calibrate/set up our computer monitors so that they accurately represent colour?
Click to expand...

I've tried and tried and tried, but all you can get is pretty close. Either the colors end up being slightly wrong, or you can't get those three black/grey bars to do what they're supposed to do. :(

Dan
 
Well, it's true that I don't know that many people with LCD tvs right now. But I definitely don't know anybody who would even consider buying a new CRT tv right now.

If I want my product to have some longevity, shouldn't I be considering what my footage will look like on the tvs which are now take up 90% of the floorspace in the shops?
 
Hey GenJerDan, what kind of monitor were you trying it on? There must be a way..surely...
 
Probably too early in the morning for me...I was thinking "computer monitor", but now I realize you might just mean a straight video monitor...

Oops.

But if you mean a computer monitor, I've tried it on my Compaq, my Nec, my Samtron, and my Sceptre (lcd). They all show the same results. It must have to do with the way the color information is sent to the monitor from the video card.

Dan
 
Well for one:
Computer monitors work in R,G,B color space (Red Green and Blue signals seperatly)
..and Video monitors use Y, Cb, Cr (YUV for those of us in europe) - otherwise known as "Component" video. This is used because the Y channel alone is the complete B&W picture used by older B&W only TVs. It's a compatibilty thing.

The systems reproduce color slightly differenctly, and infact have a different availabilty of colors they can produce (Remeber that "NTSC Safe" setting?)

- Mikko
 
Thanks guys. So, would an LCD computer monitor be quite different to an LCD tv?

If I'm following what mikkowilson is saying, an LCD computer monitor would use RGB and an LCD tv would use YUV? Is it also different depending on format? (I'm in a PAL country)
 
I use a 23" Apple HD Cinema Display.

Looks pretty damn good, if you ask me. I don't really check on monitors often, but sometimes I do. When I view stuff on a regular TV it usually looks better and it covers up a lot of blemishes I try to take out.

I say it depends on your monitor. If you're lucky enough to afford a Cinema HD display from apple - you probably don't absolutely positively need a monitor all until up towards the end. Color matching is handled by the OS (Color Sync) and its quite good(if you're lucky enough to be using a Mac). However, if you like, you can purchase expensive tools or use software to calibrate your monitor even further, because color spaces can change depending on your display and ambient conditions.

But if you can afford one of those displays, why can't you afford an NTSC monitor?

Through my experience my problems arise when working with motion graphics and bleeding, and thats where you've got to be careful. Careful creation of the graphics beforehand will probably alleviate most of these problems, just keep an eye on contrast, and find a really old CRT tube to test your images on, perhaps one that's a little burnt out, to see how your stuff looks in a worse case scenerio.

But if you think about it, the people watching on the broken down 30 year old TV's are probably used to everything on it looking a certain way. You don't want to cater to those people at the expense of image/color quality.

Anyway, my point is, if you're asking this question and you think you need it, then who are we to tell you otherwise? Its all relative to the amount of technicality you want to throw into your productions. If you offset that with cost, and the benifits outweigh the cost, then obviously, you need yourself a NTSC monitor (not a TV, but one with component inputs.) Once you get one of those you'll probably need another video/capture card with component outputs, and the cost goes up and up.

And is anyone going to notice these strides you have taken in achieving near perfect color correction perfectionism? Yes, maybe, if you cornered them in the street with a side by side comparison and they have a background in technical production.
 
And all this will be moot in the near future, since they're going to stop making CRTs.

So....SOMEbody better do SOMEthing about good (or at least standardized) reproduction. :)

Dan
 
Fritz.
I'm not sure about the techincality of how different LCDs work, however at least the driver circuitry and interfacign will handle the signals differently... more to the point, a PC video card will calculate everythign as RGB and send that out ot the monitor, so any signal from there is an approximation, even if it is rastered as YUV in the monitor.
Not sure how a Composite/S-video out on a graphics card will work, i think it deppends on the card.
A special video editing card will ahdnle the signals correctly, but that has allready been meantiond about hwo the costs tend to go up from there..

My solution which i use (to satisfactory results) is i Edit with Prem Pro (which works in YUV and then converts for PC display) and montiro through my Firewire camera (whcih of course uses proper YUV video) all the way out to a properly calibrated monitor.

- Mikko
 
Thanks everyone for your advice and information. I am understanding a lot better now! I reckon one of these days someone's going to make a lot of money with a program for people like us, which accurately calibrates your computer monitor to act like a video monitor. Something similar to DVRack I guess.

mikkowilson, at the moment I think I have a similar setup to you. That is, I edit with FCP (which I believe works in YUV) and I also monitor thru a firewire camera back out to a tv monitor. Except it's not a professional monitor, just an old CRT which used to be used as an on set monitor. It doesn't have the blue only button or anything like that, but I guess if I put colour bars on it from the DVX I should still be able to calibrate it reasonably accurately using the adjustments it does have.

Anyone have any hints for calibrating correctly using PAL colour bars? All the stuff I've found online seems geared towards NTSC, but the PAL ones don't have the pluge bars etc.
 
GenJerDan said:
And all this will be moot in the near future, since they're going to stop making CRTs.

So....SOMEbody better do SOMEthing about good (or at least standardized) reproduction. :)

Dan
Click to expand...


Not really. Actually 90% of all TVs sold to date are still 4:3 CRT. But look for LCD sets to take a dive in price this Christmas as companies are starting an aggressive push. And speaking of CRT, some new TVS that are thin CRTS are hitting the market this summer so CRTs are not dead, just getting thinner. And in the professional world CRTs are the lifeblood of our production so I don't expect them to go anywhere soon. About the best pro LCDs you can by are these but they cost more than most of us make in a year. :)

http://www.ecinemasys.com/
 
If you're using a monitor(LCD) and video card with a DVI or ADC (no longer around, but my monitor uses it anyway) all signals are totally digital.
 
fritz said:
Thanks everyone for your advice and information. I am understanding a lot better now! I reckon one of these days someone's going to make a lot of money with a program for people like us, which accurately calibrates your computer monitor to act like a video monitor.
Click to expand...
Hey there, Fritz!!

I remember Jarred posting something about that kind of software a little while ago. I did a search and came up with this thread about "Spyder Correction"

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=26339&page=3

fritz said:
. . .an old CRT which used to be used as an on set monitor. It doesn't have the blue only button or anything like that, but I guess if I put colour bars on it from the DVX I should still be able to calibrate it reasonably accurately using the adjustments it does have.
Click to expand...
My big brother told me about these little blue colored glasses from THX called the "Optimizer Glasses" They can be used in place of a blue-only on monitors or in my brother's case, for video projectors.. I know here in the states they sell/ship for $3/Pair. Bet you could probably request they be shipped outside the states for a small amount. Here, we were able to get three pairs for $3, just from a phone call.. They are really nice on the phone! Here's the link:

THX Optimizer Glasses
http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/incrediblesOptiEng.html

fritz said:
Anyone have any hints for calibrating correctly using PAL colour bars? All the stuff I've found online seems geared towards NTSC, but the PAL ones don't have the pluge bars etc.
Click to expand...
I think the THX test patterns included are for NTSC. Maybe the glasses would still be useful?? I'm not sure, but I hope the links are helpful. Best Wishes!
 
Have you heard anything either way about BarcoView LCD's? My father works in the defense industry and was telling me about them being used in the V-22 Osprey (they build them here) and seems like I heard a Final Cut Pro guy talking about one. I personally have not used one, of course, since they're like as much as I make in a year... any thoughts? Are they not so much used in this industry as other brands? Just curious, that's all. Thanks. :thumbsup:
 
redcap said:
If you're using a monitor(LCD) and video card with a DVI or ADC (no longer around, but my monitor uses it anyway) all signals are totally digital.
Click to expand...

Digital or not, there is still a difference between YUV and RGB. heck, SDI is digital, but it's YUV, so is DV.. oh wait, so are most all digital video formats - at least tape.

:-)



- Mikko
 
Walter_Graff said:
Not really. Actually 90% of all TVs sold to date are still 4:3 CRT.
Click to expand...

Hmm...thought I read somewhere that they were scaling back production because of the environment-unfriendly stuff in the tube...

Perhaps not. But it wouldn't surprise me if "they" got around to it sooner or later.

Dan
 
Hey thisiswells - thanks for your post! I did a search online for that Spyder Correction software, but it seems to be geared towards matching monitor colours to print out colours. So maybe it's more for graphic designers.

Thanks heaps for the link to the THX glasses! They look cool - much better than holding up a gel in front of your face. Do you know if they are the same as the Wratten 47B filter? I keep reading descriptions online about how to calibrate monitors, and lots of them say you need to use a Wratten 47B.

I'm sure I could use the glasses, because I have the correct PAL colour bars from FCP. (Found them last night inside the Video Effects folder, in a folder called Video Generators.) They are better than the PAL bars on the DVX because they have the Pluge bars, which the DVX PAL bars don't.

I've never heard of BarcoView LCDs. Sorry!
 
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