MKH416 very disapointed

Cees Mutsaers

Cees Mutsaers

Veteran
I bought a 416 mic and connected it to the HPX301E. I am very dissapointed by the sound quality, the level is very low even if you record till 0 dB (ppm-fs) which you in reality will never do and the noise level is extremely high at all the recording levels (yes phantom power is on, limiter off, auto off). Is my mic defect?
 
Cees Mutsaers said:
I bought a 416 mic and connected it to the HPX301E. I am very dissapointed by the sound quality, the level is very low even if you record till 0 dB (ppm-fs) which you in reality will never do and the noise level is extremely high at all the recording levels (yes phantom power is on, limiter off, auto off). Is my mic defect?
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How far away is the mic from the person speaking? If you're trying to mount it on the camera in order to record someone's voice from 10 metres away, it's going to sound lousy. No mic works well in that situation. But if you're trying to use it on a boom, pointing it directly at the talent's mouth from 1 meter away, something is definitely wrong.
 
I did some test recording with the mic 20 cm from my mouth !!!!! In the manual I read something about that in some cases you have to include some resistor in the cable so you get a voltage devider which would decrease the noise level. Maybe it is necessary with HPX300

Is there anyone with a HPX300 and a 416 with good results which can give me all the audio settings in the HPX300 when connecting it to the front input. I have the feeling that I am missing some hidden setting.


Steve House said:
How far away is the mic from the person speaking? If you're trying to mount it on the camera in order to record someone's voice from 10 metres away, it's going to sound lousy. No mic works well in that situation. But if you're trying to use it on a boom, pointing it directly at the talent's mouth from 1 meter away, something is definitely wrong.
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if you're going directly into the camera, go into the menu and see if
the mic level signal is on -50db or -60db.

Also, not saying its the case here, but if your power supply isn't putting out a full 48v
your s/n ratio is going to be worse.

Also realize, the lower end Panasonic cam's have crappy headphone circuits. I've only used the 300 one time
so I cant be 100% sure but if I recall it was about the same as a 200...(not great)

So if you're doing your "tests" listening off of that...well... don't.
 
I put it at -40 dB because at -50 or -60 dB the sound level is higher but the noise gets relatively to the sound even higher. Yes I adree that the phone output is not that great and that is why I connected the two audio outputs (tulip connectors) directly to the tv. The only thing I can think of is that the TV set produces a lot of noise. So I made some recordings will download the P2 card to my HDD and tomorow i will go to college and transfer it to FCP to see how the quality is.


edit : most frustrating is that a college student of me used a handheld voice recorder for narration and I was stunt by the good quality of the sound, I will sign for this if I will get this out of the 416 someday !!!

Rippie said:
if you're going directly into the camera, go into the menu and see if
the mic level signal is on -50db or -60db.

Also, not saying its the case here, but if your power supply isn't putting out a full 48v
your s/n ratio is going to be worse.

Also realize, the lower end Panasonic cam's have crappy headphone circuits. I've only used the 300 one time
so I cant be 100% sure but if I recall it was about the same as a 200...(not great)

So if you're doing your "tests" listening off of that...well... don't.
Click to expand...
 
Have you set the "trim" on your camera? That is the input level, not the recording level. Also, are you sure your phantom power is actually turned on on the camera? And some of these mics run on "T" power which is not phantom. Maybe record it into a computer or field recorder to rule out that it is the mic, or if it's the camera settings. Try a different cable. Turn off AGC in the camera - always use "manual" level. Keep your recording levels set to 50%-70%. More than that will add a lot of noise. I set mine to 50%, and use the trim to get the level up.

Also, a mixer is still the proper way to record audio into a camera even though your camera has XLR inputs and phantom. A nice Sound Devices MixPre will get your signal nice and strong - then you set your camera input to "Line" level.
 
Hi thanks for the advice. What do you mean by trim? Is it a physical knob or somewhere in the menu? The only change in input level I found was the -40/-50/-60 db setting in the menu. If I use manual I even have to set the knob of the recording level max. (so completely to the right) to get an acceptable sound level between -12 and -6 dB at the ppm (master level is also turned up). You say " I set mine to 50%" : you mean the 2 manual recording level knobs are in the middle??


Chadfish said:
Have you set the "trim" on your camera? That is the input level, not the recording level. Also, are you sure your phantom power is actually turned on on the camera? And some of these mics run on "T" power which is not phantom. Maybe record it into a computer or field recorder to rule out that it is the mic, or if it's the camera settings. Try a different cable. Turn off AGC in the camera - always use "manual" level. Keep your recording levels set to 50%-70%. More than that will add a lot of noise. I set mine to 50%, and use the trim to get the level up.

Also, a mixer is still the proper way to record audio into a camera even though your camera has XLR inputs and phantom. A nice Sound Devices MixPre will get your signal nice and strong - then you set your camera input to "Line" level.
Click to expand...
 
Cees Mutsaers said:
I put it at -40 dB because at -50 or -60 dB the sound level is higher but the noise gets relatively to the sound even higher.
Click to expand...

You should double check that - normally it would be the other way around - lowering the nominal gain and increasing at the trim pots should *worsen* the s/n ratio, not improve it, unless I'm missing something about the 300's gain structure. I would try setting the menu gain at -50 or -60 and compensate for the increased level by lowering the camera's input trims. The noise should go down proportionately.

Assuming that the gain menu's level adjustment happens 'upstream' of the trim pot's setting in the signal path, then increasing the 'menu gain' should help. The best signal to noise ratio in any audio device is always achieved by maximizing gain early in the path (while watching out for distortion) and minimizing it later (while making sure to have enough level overall). The reverse is generally the case where minimizing distortion is concerned (low gain early, high gain later). But it sounds like that's not your problem...
 
Cees Mutsaers said:
Hi thanks for the advice. What do you mean by trim? Is it a physical knob or somewhere in the menu? The only change in input level I found was the -40/-50/-60 db setting in the menu. If I use manual I even have to set the knob of the recording level max. (so completely to the right) to get an acceptable sound level between -12 and -6 dB at the ppm (master level is also turned up). You say " I set mine to 50%" : you mean the 2 manual recording level knobs are in the middle??
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OK - The reason you have hiss is because you have your "manual" level dials turned all the way up. I don't know your camera, but I'm pretty sure the "-40/-50/-60" levels in the menu are the trim. You can confirm by looking up "Trim" in your manual's glossary. Try setting your trim to -30 and see if it gets louder. You have to sit there with your headphones on, mic at your muth, and and adjust all the possible audio settings. Also you may have a low headphone volume. Set that level to 100%. If that is still too low try something like the Radio Shack 3 channel headphone Volume booster. It's like $25. I have a photo:

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picture.php


You can put a little velcro to secure it to your camera. Part of the prob with low headphone levels is that people compensate by turning up their recording levels and adding hiss. But like I said, check out those trim levels. Do a recording where you change a setting, then say on camera what the settings are, so you know when listening back. The Trim is your input level BEFORE the preamp. So the louder your trim is, the quieter you can have your preamp, which means less noise. But be careful not to clip your input with too high of a trim setting.

Like I said - If you use a mixer you can set your camera to "Line" level inputs and bypass the preamps all together. You need a line level mixer. Put one on your list...

Report back what your experiments produce. AND MAKE SURE YOUR AGC (Auto Gain Compensation) IS OFF!

Chad
 
Ok I think we use different names for the same knobs/menu settings. So I will keep the name which are on/in the cam and summarize them below.

audio level Ch1 and audio level Ch2 knobs (above the audio selector) : is that what you guys call "trims" ?

Than you have the F. audio level (fom 0 to 10, at the cam body near the lens) : to me that is a kind of master to increase or decrease the trims together.

and you have the F. mic level : -40/-50/-60 dB (in the audio menu)

These are the only four setting i could find to regulate the recorded audio level (we keep the limitor and low cut filters off for simplicity reasons). Now the trick is to set these all in such a way that together with the mic spek. (in my case a MKH416) you get the best S/N and an accaptable sound level. So maybe someone can give me some suggestion of settings so I can try this

Ted Spencer said:
You should double check that - normally it would be the other way around - lowering the nominal gain and increasing at the trim pots should *worsen* the s/n ratio, not improve it, unless I'm missing something about the 300's gain structure. I would try setting the menu gain at -50 or -60 and compensate for the increased level by lowering the camera's input trims. The noise should go down proportionately.

Assuming that the gain menu's level adjustment happens 'upstream' of the trim pot's setting in the signal path, then increasing the 'menu gain' should help. The best signal to noise ratio in any audio device is always achieved by maximizing gain early in the path (while watching out for distortion) and minimizing it later (while making sure to have enough level overall). The reverse is generally the case where minimizing distortion is concerned (low gain early, high gain later). But it sounds like that's not your problem...
Click to expand...
 
The "F. Mic Level" is the TRIM. If all you have is 3 trim settings, set it to whichever one sounds the loudest. Then set your audio level (the physical knobs on the outside of the camera) to whatever you need.

TRIM is the mic level. It means the level BEFORE your preamp. When you set the audio level, or "F. Audio Level" you are adjusting the preamp. The louder the preamp goes the more hiss you have. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO if you have too much hiss still you neeeeeeeeeed a MIXER.
 
Yes, I was probably confusing things by calling the camera's external knobs "trims". Nonetheless, if the menu setting gain is indeed 'upstream' (ahead/before/whatever) of the physical gain pots (knobs), then what I said earlier would apply. Turn up the menu gain to the highest setting that doesn't distort easily, then turn down the physical knobs to get the level right. One hint that you've got the right gain menu setting is when the physical knobs are about 12-1 o'clock for a proper level. If you have to turn them way down to get it right, or way up, you've made the wrong choice in the menu.
 
Ted Spencer said:
One hint that you've got the right gain menu setting is when the physical knobs are about 12-1 o'clock for a proper level. If you have to turn them way down to get it right, or way up, you've made the wrong choice in the menu.
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Maybe use a % to talk about levels. 12 o'clock on my camera is 100%. Start at 50% and go up from there.
 
A trim is usually a physical knob. Look around for it.

I second trying out another cable. Cables go bad, and when they do, you can hear a lot of noise and static and the sounds you want to record will be quiet or cut in and out...
 
jwing said:
A trim is usually a physical knob. Look around for it.

I second trying out another cable. Cables go bad, and when they do, you can hear a lot of noise and static and the sounds you want to record will be quiet or cut in and out...
Click to expand...

Trim is a function. Sometimes there are physical knobs, sometimes it's menu driven. It's menu driven on my Sony Ex1, and probably on this camera as well.
 
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