Mjpeg vs avchd codec tests- the good, the bad and ugly

By the way guys..any known progress with regarding 24p in mjpeg? i know Vitaliy is working hard, but im not sure if 24p mjpeg is still possible, thanks for any new feedback..
 
was the GOP=6 shot with 24p/60i or native 24p? I'd like to see what a low GOP in 24p/60i looks like compared to these tests. Also I would like to see GOP=12 for 24p/60i since that is what is suspected to happen in Native 24p anyway.
 
Ian-T said:
Wow...look how much noisier the 60i is to the native 24p shot.
Click to expand...

Hey Ian-T,

Interlace yuck- I gather...



zcream said:
Hi Pappas. I posted it before to spark a discussion but nothing happened. Here it is again. You can notice AVCHD has more processing than MJPEG. So far your tests indicates more NR in AVCHD.
Your MJPEG vs AVCHD snaps showed a softer MJPEG image.
Why are we not considering that the MJPEG is closer to the unprocessed raw sensor signal and the sharpness in AVCHD is simply extra processing ?
I didnt see anything in your tests that could not be explained by a sharpen filter applied to MJPEG.

So, I am suggesting that AVCHD = Sensor + NR + Sharpen
while
MJPEG = Sensor signal.

Another reason for this is that upscaling does take a fair bit of time. And there is no reason for the sensor to upscale in 1080p MJPEG mode. Since its firmware, its a software RTOS implementation.
If there would be an upscale it would be for both AVCHD and MJPEG. Just an upscale for MJPEG makes absolutely no sense.
The other alternative where MJPEG is less processed does make more sense as Panny never intended MJPEG to be used at 1080p.
Click to expand...


Could be. Often straight from sensor looks soft. In photography forums- , it's filled with complaints I have read many times- like " why are my raw images so soft"... So what your saying could be dead on.

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Svart said:
was the GOP=6 shot with 24p/60i or native 24p? I'd like to see what a low GOP in 24p/60i looks like compared to these tests. Also I would like to see GOP=12 for 24p/60i since that is what is suspected to happen in Native 24p anyway.
Click to expand...


Hey Svart,

Low gop 24/60i tears up and it was horrible. I tried it with a motion wheel test on 6 and 8- Not pretty!

I went with the 6-gop 24PN same as JVC did with their HD at 24FPS. Good so far!



sammysammy said:
By the way guys..any known progress with regarding 24p in mjpeg? i know Vitaliy is working hard, but im not sure if 24p mjpeg is still possible, thanks for any new feedback..
Click to expand...

Hey Sammy,

Don't I wish! Nothing yet as I know.

What would be nice if we can get the 24PN worked out in AVCHD; this would allow us to use higher bit rate formulas with less chance of write failures-- This would be awesome..

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MJPEG for me, not good results

MJPEG for me, not good results

I'm sorry, I'm trying to like JPEG in 1440x1080 30P but I find it to be occasionally noisy and blocky. And in general I just find it kind of noisy, even in low ISO, like 100. Im using the 420 color space mode because i read in one of the threads 422 wasn't doing anything, maybe this is my mistake? I'm sure it's my fault but with all the hundreds of posts I'm just trying to keep it simple and using the 'stable' settings thread (or what I think they are -- not sure). I'm sure it's my problem but if I'm not 'adding to the noise' of all these posts it would be appreciated tell me what settings I have wrong. Thanks much.

In the attachment, notice the blocking in the man's shirt, this seems to happen occasionally in darker areas, very unacceptable. Here are my settings:

MJPEG size 1280m->1920m checked
MJPEG 1280m width 1440
MJPEG 1280m height 1080
MPEG 1280m 420->422 color sampling not checked
MJPEG E1 Quality 384
MJPEG E1 Table 24
MJPEG E2 Quality 300
MJPEG E2 Table 24
MJPEG E3 Quality 300
MJPEG E3 Table 24
MJPEG E4 Quality 276
MJPEG E4 Table 24
Video Bitrate Adjustment Simplified 50000000
Overall Bitrate Adjustment 52000000
Limiting Bitrate Adjustment 60000000
 

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kmoreau893 said:
I'm sorry, I'm trying to like JPEG in 1440x1080 30P
Click to expand...

Remember that AVCHD is applying it's own algorithms, and there is some form of smoothing possibly. MJPEG doesn't, it appears.

Also the better the compression ( or the least ) you start to see the sensor noise because it to now is getting compressed and not thrown out from the codec.

Here is an example ( link below ) of how a 35Mbit codec will render a sky and the sensor noise entirely different- however when a 100mb long gop is done at the same sky- look at the sesnor noise and image. That just means your getting more of how the sensor looks and not blurred out.

Take a look- half way down the page: http://www.xdcam-user.com/?page_id=358


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It's hard for me to believe the blockiness is lack of smoothing filters. Look at the screenshot, it's horrible. It seems like a bug in the codec or something wrong with my settings.

Pappas, are, are you now trusting / shooting in mjpeg or AVCHD? I'm not going to again until I can resolve these issues. In a lot of posts it's sometimes hard for me to tell if people are talking about MJPEG or AVCHD. The 24pN AVCHD I've shot is pretty stunning, if not overly sharp, but I hear there are ways to help this. Thanks for any advice.
 
kmoreau893 said:
It's hard for me to believe the blockiness is lack of smoothing filters. Look at the screenshot, it's horrible. It seems like a bug in the codec or something wrong with my settings.

Pappas, are, are you now trusting / shooting in mjpeg or AVCHD? I'm not going to again until I can resolve these issues. In a lot of posts it's sometimes hard for me to tell if people are talking about MJPEG or AVCHD. The 24pN AVCHD I've shot is pretty stunning, if not overly sharp, but I hear there are ways to help this. Thanks for any advice.
Click to expand...

The Mjpeg has been for me- very good. Your settings are normal. I'm shooting in both- like many others. Yes it's sharp, however it's a very nice image.

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PappasArts said:
Hey Svart,

Low gop 24/60i tears up and it was horrible. I tried it with a motion wheel test on 6 and 8- Not pretty!

I went with the 6-gop 24PN same as JVC did with their HD at 24FPS. Good so far!
Click to expand...


Yeah mine tore up with anything less than 10 with 24p/60i.

I'd still like to see the comparison between GOP=12 24p/60i and your native 24p stuff.
 
Svart said:
Yeah mine tore up with anything less than 10 with 24p/60i.

I'd still like to see the comparison between GOP=12 24p/60i and your native 24p stuff.
Click to expand...

Right now I'm playing with 64-72-80/ 15GOP- 24 over 60i.. Quality is insane if I don't get a write error. I'm totally convinced it's the cards not being able to keep up. Where are those class 20's :-/

If someone could rig up a SD dummy card with a cable to a hi end CF card... Mmmm- Kinda like what people were trying to do with P2 way back..


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I shot some stuff before work this morning at 56-63-70 with GOP=12 in 24p/60i. I didn't have time to view it though. I'm interested to see what it looks like compared to "C" settings in GOP=12.

I did get the *real* card speed error with highly detailed scenes while panning. Camera did NOT lock up so I know it's the real deal.

Anyway, I pretty much have to be able to view video in camera/hdmi out so I can't run any GOP less than 12 anyway.

As for that, I compared GOP=15 and GOP=12 on my TV last night and I'd swear that some of those artifacts around the leaves and flowers were not present on the GOP=12 setting under 24p/60i.
 
Nobody here is talking about the inferior audio quality that comes with MJPEG. Its sampling rate (not bitrate!) is only 16000Hz in contrast to the 48000Hz with AVCHD. MJPEG audio is audibly worse. Or has it been solved yet?

If you are planning on flushing the audio down the toilet anyway and use some background music instead, then ok, it makes no difference. But in any other case I don't think that whoever cares so much about pixel-peeping the video image to get the highest possible quality would settle with such a low quality audio. Especially when the device is otherwise capable of recording really nice audio.
 
Svart said:
I shot some stuff before work this morning at 56-63-70 with GOP=12 in 24p/60i. I didn't have time to view it though. I'm interested to see what it looks like compared to "C" settings in GOP=12.

I did get the *real* card speed error with highly detailed scenes while panning. Camera did NOT lock up so I know it's the real deal.

Anyway, I pretty much have to be able to view video in camera/hdmi out so I can't run any GOP less than 12 anyway.

As for that, I compared GOP=15 and GOP=12 on my TV last night and I'd swear that some of those artifacts around the leaves and flowers were not present on the GOP=12 setting under 24p/60i.
Click to expand...


Hey Svart,

64-72-80- gop15 testing at the moment. Nice image.

I tried to others today 74-82-90 - 84-92-100- at GOP 15. Both were muddy as hell. Worse than
the stock codec. Weird as the numbers went up.

If a lower number set is good- then a middle set is better- and a higher set is worse. This must mean there is an optimum set, possibly somewhere in between.

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Pappas,

You might consider posting this info on the AVCHD research thread. Seems pretty significant to me.

Chris
 
Ok- tried some new settings at 58-60-68 15GOP - that seem to give me what 24/60i at 64-72-80 15GOP did days ago in testing.

Make sense since there's 36 less frames to compress with 24 over 60fields . So at 24 discrete frames there's an increase of Mbits thrown at it, probably like 8 to 10Mbits more.
Still got to fully test to be sure....

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So my 56-63-70 at 12GOP looks fantastic. It just gives me *real* card speed errors(the kind that don't lock the camera up) and I'm seeing around 30-45 mbit on average and I caught a few 103mbit in peak bitrates before the camera pooped out. I believe this is the max of the Patriot LX class 10, somewhere in the low 100mbit range.

It would be interesting to see a matrix of bitrates and images and then GOP and images. I bet we can find an overlapping point of 24p/60i at higher bitrates/lower GOP and lower bitrate native 24p.

My goal is to find a point where people can get settings equivalent to Native 24p without having to use Native 24p. This keeps cheapskates like me from needing to buy high dollar cards until Vitaliy can eventually fix the Native 24p patch(if possible).
 
I think the 24p/60i with high bit rate settings looks better than any of the native 24p footage I've shot with the GH-1 anyway.
 
Svart said:
...I believe this is the max of the Patriot LX class 10, somewhere in the low 100mbit range...
Click to expand...

My tests indicate that the Patriot 32gig class 10 card can only be stable at around 53-54mbp/s. any spike above that and it fails. Believe me it's very disappointing for a class 10 card.
 
Svart said:
So my 56-63-70 at 12GOP looks fantastic. It just gives me *real* card speed errors(the kind that don't lock the camera up) and I'm seeing around 30-45 mbit on average and I caught a few 103mbit in peak bitrates before the camera pooped out. I believe this is the max of the Patriot LX class 10, somewhere in the low 100mbit range.

It would be interesting to see a matrix of bitrates and images and then GOP and images. I bet we can find an overlapping point of 24p/60i at higher bitrates/lower GOP and lower bitrate native 24p.

My goal is to find a point where people can get settings equivalent to Native 24p without having to use Native 24p. This keeps cheapskates like me from needing to buy high dollar cards until Vitaliy can eventually fix the Native 24p patch(if possible).
Click to expand...

Nice I am going to try 56-63-70 at 12GOP, but this is my first time messing with GOP...

I only see 1080p24 GOP, I am assuming that is where you are entering the 12 GOP. Is this 1080p24 GOP for both native 24p and 24p/60i? My guess is yes but just want to be sure.

Thanks!

Oh and I will be testing with a transcend 8gb class 10 and 6.
 
My tests indicate that the Patriot 32gig class 10 card can only be stable at around 53-54mbp/s. any spike above that and it fails. Believe me it's very disappointing for a class 10 card.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree. I have a Patriot LX 16GB Class 10 card and the highest bit rate settings I can get up to without any errors are 50,52,70... and that's without native 24p checked. Any higher than that and I start getting write speed errors.
 
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