Mixer help!

Looks like a Mackie 1202 ... the owner's manual is avaiable for download here .. http://www.mackie.com/products/1202vlz3/pdf/1202VLZ3_OM.pdf

The problem with using the tape outs is they are parallel to the main outs and as the board op rides gain it will effect the recording levels. You have a pair of AUX Sends right there top centre that aren't being used, grab them. Feed AUX 1 Send to the recorder left channel, AUX2 to the right. Use the AUX Send knobs at the top of each channel strip to determine where and how much of each channel gets to the recorder. You can set up you AUX mix independently of the channel levels and main level so do so and instruct (but nicely) the board op not to touch those controls. What you set up won't effect what his house sound will sound like. Remeber the mixer's +4dBu output will overdrive the consumer line inputs on the Zoom so a couple of inline -15 dB pads will be in order.
 
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The problem with using the tape outs is they are parallel to the main outs and as the board op rides gain it will effect the recording levels

In the specific set of circumstances n.b. a church board it is highly unlikely that anyone would be riding the Levels in my experience of weddings. The person responsible for the board would do little more than an initial sound check to ensure that the priest and lectern mics are performing and thats it. They would have had all the technical stuff set up by a specialist supplier and occasionally refer to them for any major issues. The common exception to that - in my area anyway - is Baptist churches where they often seem to have a good audio setup and a volunteer manning the board who knows what they are doing. I've even had them record the whole thing to a USB stick for me :- ) But even then there can be issues - at one the priest had a highly directional handheld mic (to be expected of course) and she held it towards the couple throughout their vows making her voice very hard to hear; an H1 I had clamped on a nearby mic stand (which was for the handheld mic) saved my day.

This was the setup:

http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/632-pass/gal01-pass/025-8892-04_pass.htm

but that is very unusual. Nice big modern board easily accessible at the back. The H1 is clamped to the mic stand just to the right of the altar.

But later in the day when the DJ or reception venue board come into play you do have to be very much aware of the riding the Levels issue.

"you could plug the cable into a wireless transmitter"
Most transmitters are mic level by default so attenuation would be needed. OTOH, many accept line level input operation via a 'custom' wired plug/cable. ( Lectro and Sennheiser for instance)

I have a couple of -25dB pad cables with 3.5mm jacks at each end and one of these comes out in those circumstances :- )

Weddings can be very messy affairs to shoot requiring a lot of last minute improvisation and with zero client understanding of what you need to do to achieve an acceptable result.

Pete
 
To elaborate, AUX sends come in two varieties pre-fader and post-fader. Pre fader will not be affected by the house mixer's fader moves.. Post fader will. However both are after and affected by the channel gain/trim, so if the house person is clipping the preamp, that's what you get.
On some of the older Mackie VLZ boards, the Aux. sends were not Pre/Post switchable.. Aux 1=Pre-fader, Aux-2= Post-fader. I further recall Aux 1 had a master, Aux 2 did not.
Don't know if that was changed.
 
I too would suggest the preface mix is the cleanest solution BUT, without somebody spare to balance the multiple inputs, you are hoping it's going to be good - There main outs could well feedback, or be too high or low - but no doubt the knob turner would notice and turn the appropriate fader up or down. Your preface mix can't be heard without headphones, so it's a person that's needed to make it work - and one who understands sound. Any college audio/music student does this kind of thing! Maybe one is about you can borrow.
 
Once again David are you reading what I am writing?
Because for some reason all you are getting out of it is me saying your shouldnt be doing this job.
I never said that. Thats the sad part here..
I"m trying to help you out by saying if you're struggling knowing where to connect your feed at its probably best you go read the whole manual about the board..learn it as best as you can
and at the same time try to read up about proper gain staging, how to get feeds off of other parts of the signal chain or at least other parts of the board other than just the main outs.

Once again I'm sorry you're taking what I'm saying as a direct insult on you. I don't know you. I don't gain anything by telling you more than you asked for.
In any topic out there.. say fixing cars.. if someone came into a car forum and said.. hey where do I change the air in my tires, and after that I'm going to rebuild the transmission
they might get a response "you fill the air in the little piece of rubber coming out of the tires".. or you might get the response.. "you fill the air in the little piece of rubber coming out of the tires, but
if you're struggling with that I hope you really read up and has as much knowledge as you can before you try to tackle the transmission."

You might think someone is questioning if you can do this job or not.. that is'nt even what I'm saying.
I'm saying if you're going to do this job go in with more ammo than only knowing where to plug in to.

I've literally plugged into 100's of board feeds in my 20 years of doing production sound. I know what's out there.

Try for 2 mins not to think everyone is attacking you but try to learn what they are saying to you.

David W. Richardson said:
Somehow this turned from a simple question about connecting the H4 to the mixer, to a rather insulting and arrogant "are YOU the person who should be doing this video???" I see this happen a lot here, and it's turning this once great place into a place I rarely want to come to anymore.

I have done this before. I do have redundant sound capturing systems in place. I just had ONE QUESTION. I'm thankful to those who simply answered the question without feeling the need to treat me like someone worthy of scorn.

I'm done.
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Rick R said:
To elaborate, AUX sends come in two varieties pre-fader and post-fader. Pre fader will not be affected by the house mixer's fader moves.. Post fader will. However both are after and affected by the channel gain/trim, so if the house person is clipping the preamp, that's what you get.
On some of the older Mackie VLZ boards, the Aux. sends were not Pre/Post switchable.. Aux 1=Pre-fader, Aux-2= Post-fader. I further recall Aux 1 had a master, Aux 2 did not.
Don't know if that was changed.
Click to expand...
From the photo posted, the switch under the AUX 1 Master AUX 1 is switchable pre or post fader while Aux 2 is always post fader. Yes, they will be affected by the channel strip faders when post- but they won't be affected by the Master Main Output levels, which the operator is likely to use to set the volume going out to the house.
 
Steve House said:
From the photo posted, the switch under the AUX 1 Master AUX 1 is switchable pre or post fader while Aux 2 is always post fader. Yes, they will be affected by the channel strip faders when post- but they won't be affected by the Master Main Output levels, which the operator is likely to use to set the volume going out to the house.
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true but this and a bunch of suggestions assumes some action, or lack of, on the operators part.
the point a number of us have been trying to make is that ANY plan that is dependant on the operator working io some way you think is logical is actually depending on luck. I was at a presentation two days ago with an amature operator. The music continued to play after the MC started talking and they ended up pulling everything to get it to stop and then "figured out" which pot was the speaker. In these kinds of situations you are just asking for trouble if you make any assumptions about what the operator will do. They DO NOT know what they are doing and will do things that you wouldn't guess in a million years. The only fix is to go a route where there is little to no chance the operator can touch anything that will affect you.
 
Noiz2 said:
true but this and a bunch of suggestions assumes some action, or lack of, on the operators part.
the point a number of us have been trying to make is that ANY plan that is dependant on the operator working io some way you think is logical is actually depending on luck. I was at a presentation two days ago with an amature operator. The music continued to play after the MC started talking and they ended up pulling everything to get it to stop and then "figured out" which pot was the speaker. In these kinds of situations you are just asking for trouble if you make any assumptions about what the operator will do. They DO NOT know what they are doing and will do things that you wouldn't guess in a million years. The only fix is to go a route where there is little to no chance the operator can touch anything that will affect you.
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Very true
 
Thanks for all the help guys!

Based on the photo he sent me (on my original post), it looks like he has the AUX 1 gain set all the way up to the max, and the switch set to "Pre". Am I reading that right?

With the switch set to 'Pre', I understand I'm getting un-mixed levels from all the inputs. I believe what I want is mixed levels -- basically the same sound that is going out to the speakers.

I should have mentioned from the start that this is an outdoor venue. So the mix is probably going to be fairly straightforward, not having to deal with the ambiguities of an indoor venue.

An un-mixed signal isn't the end of the world, since each sound source will be heard by itself for the most part -- music, readings, vows won't be on top of each other. So if the levels vary, they can be easily adjusted in post, as long as there is no clipping, because each is isolated unto itself. However, there will be a soloist. I don't know if the soloist will be accompanied by recorded music or not. If he or she is, then it would be bad if the pre-mix sound was hotter on the music than on the vocals.

I want to say again -- this is NOT the only coverage of audio that I will have in place. But it has the potential to be the cleanest, if done right.

Thanks again for the assist!
 
David W. Richardson said:
Based on the photo he sent me (on my original post), it looks like he has the AUX 1 gain set all the way up to the max, and the switch set to "Pre". Am I reading that right?
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Yes, but as he has nothing being fed by either of the Aux outputs, it doesn't really matter where he has it set right now. It will need to be set up for your feed this weekend.

David W. Richardson said:
With the switch set to 'Pre', I understand I'm getting un-mixed levels from all the inputs. I believe what I want is mixed levels -- basically the same sound that is going out to the speakers.

An un-mixed signal isn't the end of the world, since each sound source will be heard by itself for the most part -- music, readings, vows won't be on top of each other. So if the levels vary, they can be easily adjusted in post, as long as there is no clipping, because each is isolated unto itself. However, there will be a soloist. I don't know if the soloist will be accompanied by recorded music or not. If he or she is, then it would be bad if the pre-mix sound was hotter on the music than on the vocals.
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"Pre-fade" auxiliary is not unmixed. Each input strip has its own mix level control for each of the aux busses. Pre-fade vs. post-fade is a matter of aux send levels that come before the main mix level fader for that input (and are thus not impacted by any changes to the main mix) vs. aux send levels that come after the main mix level fader (and are thus affected by any changes made to the main mix). By setting up a pre-fade aux mix, the levels that are set stay that way. A post-fade aux mix will be changed as the operator of the console (again, let's not call this guy an engineer) makes changes to individual sources in the main mix.

If you take your feed from the boards mains or tape out, you are completely subject to any and everything that this guy does during the ceremony. You may be better off setting Aux 1 as a pre-fade and taking ONLY the clergy lav and the other mic, then taking the Aux 2 (which is post-fade) for the music sources. This will, at least, give you some flexibility over the music and vocals mix in post.

As for setting up the Aux mixes, you need to start with both Aux master faders at unity ("U"), which is basically your 0db reference point. Prior to the service, you'll need to get a complete sound check with this guy. Check both mics at real performance level and bring them up until you have it where you need it. Then, do the same with the music sources on Aux 2.

And check my PM if you haven't gotten it. You are kind of playing with fire here simply because there's an unskilled operator at the helm of the PA system. Any and everything we suggest for you here is merely a safeguard to minimize risk (relatively). It won't be eliminated, but we can reduce it. A crash-course in the Mackie board will help.
 
Well the wedding went fine. Luckily the guy who told me he was 'not an expert' wasn't the person running the sound. The guy running the board seemed to know what he was doing. He had me patch to the 'Tape Output', and that worked great!

Thanks again for all the help!
 
An issue that I didn't bring up because it wasn't specific to the post, and don't want to rain on the parade, but you have a song on the that teaser that there is next to no chance you got the rights to use. I had almost mentioned it before when you were talking about pulling a music feed but...

So they kind of get away at the ceremony/ reception because it's basically a private party. Technically they do need to get permission but it's not something I have ever heard enforced. You on the other hand are making a video and do require synchronization rights to use the music. And there have been some cases of wedding video companies getting sued over copyright violations.

I'm actually surprised vimeo hasn't gotten a take down notice since there is a music video for this song that was released through Universal so they should be looking.

I understand the rock and a hard place that the sometimes unfair and often weird copyright laws put you in. But since the "I can use commercial music if I'm doing XYZ, right?" comes up all the time and the answer in 99.999% of the cases is NO, and you just posted a link to exactly the kind of thing people point to and say see I kind of had to mention it.
 
Noiz2 said:
An issue that I didn't bring up because it wasn't specific to the post, and don't want to rain on the parade, but you have a song on the that teaser that there is next to no chance you got the rights to use. I had almost mentioned it before when you were talking about pulling a music feed but...
Click to expand...

The link is gone.

As for the music feed, it was processional/recessional music, which I plan to replace in the video with royalty-free similar music. It was just part of the overall feed being pulled from the board.
 
Sorry wasn't tying to pick on you but this is an issue that comes up all the time.
And I know that weddings and wedding videos largely just ignore the issue, but there you go.

Nice video BTW.
 
Noiz2 said:
Sorry wasn't tying to pick on you but this is an issue that comes up all the time.
And I know that weddings and wedding videos largely just ignore the issue, but there you go.

Nice video BTW.
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Thanks. It's rough and needs to be tightened up. I just wanted the family to have something to see, since I'll be out of town and unable to work on their video for the next 10 days.

I understand the issue, believe me. And you're not wrong. I just don't know how to compete against wedding videographers who almost ALL use copyrighted music in all their videos. It's especially hard to avoid when there is featured music in the ceremony, or if covering the reception. But your point is well taken.
 
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