Run&Gun
Veteran
Do you have an NDA about to expire?
FS7: Mixed light conditions Custom or Cine IE ?
- Thread starter Publimix
- Start date
Do you have an NDA about to expire?
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
No, if that viewfinder is in the works I'll be just as surprised as anyone else. But it is a nice dream.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
This is true. And I have it. How? Why? Well that is the Sony FS100 and 'Standard' on the FS7. I literally spent days dialling the FS100 - days I do not have - engaging custom on the FS7 one sees that 'standard' has, well it is not usable to my eye. HG may have some looks in there somewhere but finding them is just too challenging when you are in rehab.
Liam Hall
Veteran
Guilty as charged. Lol. Actually, for me white balancing in Custom Mode is so 1980s and I can't go there, too many nightmares and I might bump into my ex-wife...
Indeed, why go back to an old fashioned method where you have to constantly fiddle with the camera and compromise the final image by adding gain, reducing dynamic range and introducing Sony's whacky colour science found in Custom Mode?
For me, it's much better, quicker and easier to stick in Cine EI and use the presets as best I can. Sometimes I shoot a white card in mixed light as a reference for grading, though that's pretty rare. Anyway, I love mixed light - embrace it - and who wants flat, lifeless digibeta looking footage?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
To be fair Id like to get a custom look that i could deliver straight. (I cant see how burned luts work for this as no WB)
I would need to..
find a look
learn an exposure methodology for that look.
the second being more complex.
--
The thing about log is it has a straight repeatable workflow.
apply lut
correct colour to shot grey card (or gretag in resolve)
use secondaries to dodge/burn back the full DR if required/budget available.
--
It would also be good to have a HG that offers medium DR (and therefore more tonal fidelity than log) and have a LUT to move it to 709, there are no HG-709 luts afaik.
Log does IMO compromise tonal fidelity but currently that is the fastest trade off between file quality and ease of use.
I would need to..
find a look
learn an exposure methodology for that look.
the second being more complex.
--
The thing about log is it has a straight repeatable workflow.
apply lut
correct colour to shot grey card (or gretag in resolve)
use secondaries to dodge/burn back the full DR if required/budget available.
--
It would also be good to have a HG that offers medium DR (and therefore more tonal fidelity than log) and have a LUT to move it to 709, there are no HG-709 luts afaik.
Log does IMO compromise tonal fidelity but currently that is the fastest trade off between file quality and ease of use.
icarusfilm
Veteran
this is from a shoot two days ago HG8 with black level at -8
Interesting discussion.
I've been using my FS7 for over 2 years now, and I haven't once used Custom Mode.
However, I'm finding Log/EI a PITA when offline editing quick jobs, as the LUT just bogs down Prem Pro, and I'm interested in trying Custom on more shoots.
So, at the risk of inviting wrath upon myself, as this has probably been discussed ad infinitum in the past and I've just ignored it because "I don't do custom", have any of you custom boys found a nice recipe you'd like to share for "most" situations - so, if I said I used to shoot in "WDR" on a C100/300, is there an acceptable similar compromise setting for the FS7 for time-poor numpties like me?
Cheers,
Ben.
I've been using my FS7 for over 2 years now, and I haven't once used Custom Mode.
However, I'm finding Log/EI a PITA when offline editing quick jobs, as the LUT just bogs down Prem Pro, and I'm interested in trying Custom on more shoots.
So, at the risk of inviting wrath upon myself, as this has probably been discussed ad infinitum in the past and I've just ignored it because "I don't do custom", have any of you custom boys found a nice recipe you'd like to share for "most" situations - so, if I said I used to shoot in "WDR" on a C100/300, is there an acceptable similar compromise setting for the FS7 for time-poor numpties like me?
Cheers,
Ben.
You can also bake in a LUT..as a half way house.. ?... esp if you can cook up your own .. then you avoid alot of the grade but have a look you really like, baked in..
Ive done this alot.. or when I shoot custom ..go for one of HG.. 7/8 or 3/4.. on the F5 the F55 like matrix is pretty good.. as you can see from Icarus post.. this idea you cant get anything nice in custom /HG is plainly un true.. you can just with pre set matrix.. STD with a hard knee its alot easier to screw up the highlights if you dont know what you doing.. but the HG have a roll off .. 7 and 8 or like (so called) LOG on a C300 !! you have around 12 stop s DR.. if you cant make that work its not the custom setting you need to worry about..
icarusfilm
Veteran
I tried baking in a lut created some etc. I wanted it to work but have to agree with Doug the results are too unpredictable especially screwing up skintones. I find the results in hg8/7 very reliable for quick turnaround but generally also for difficult or low light.
For clients I sometimes ride the black level between -5 and -12 and they just need to sometimes add some contrast and bump up saturation to their liking.
For clients I sometimes ride the black level between -5 and -12 and they just need to sometimes add some contrast and bump up saturation to their liking.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I've shot LOG and RAW on my 55, but the bulk of the work I do on it is in Custom. I've been fairly happy with the Abel Cine "normal" or "standard" (don't remember which they call it) scene file, with the black level brought down to at least -5(thank you Doug in your book for pointing out to look at the waveform with the body capped and that set at 0, black is is not black), and Standard gamma(in most controlled lighting situations). Now personal preference does play into this. I like a "rich" image, slightly contasty, slightly saturated. Not cartoony mind you, but definitely not as "laid back" as a lot of the stuff I see(I call a lot of that stuff LOG+ lol). If I was a little more talented I'd try to port, as best you could, the "EOS Standard" profile from my C300 to my 55 to use for most of my sit-downs.
icarusfilm
Veteran
I do miss the eOS standard it's def. a crowd pleaser- for my taste a little plasticy but for the uninformed client an easy fix.
QUOTE=Run&Gun;1986694726]I've shot LOG and RAW on my 55, but the bulk of the work I do on it is in Custom. I've been fairly happy with the Abel Cine "normal" or "standard" (don't remember which they call it) scene file, with the black level brought down to at least -5(thank you Doug in your book for pointing out to look at the waveform with the body capped and that set at 0, black is is not black), and Standard gamma(in most controlled lighting situations). Now personal preference does play into this. I like a "rich" image, slightly contasty, slightly saturated. Not cartoony mind you, but definitely not as "laid back" as a lot of the stuff I see(I call a lot of that stuff LOG+ lol). If I was a little more talented I'd try to port, as best you could, the "EOS Standard" profile from my C300 to my 55 to use for most of my sit-downs.[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=Run&Gun;1986694726]I've shot LOG and RAW on my 55, but the bulk of the work I do on it is in Custom. I've been fairly happy with the Abel Cine "normal" or "standard" (don't remember which they call it) scene file, with the black level brought down to at least -5(thank you Doug in your book for pointing out to look at the waveform with the body capped and that set at 0, black is is not black), and Standard gamma(in most controlled lighting situations). Now personal preference does play into this. I like a "rich" image, slightly contasty, slightly saturated. Not cartoony mind you, but definitely not as "laid back" as a lot of the stuff I see(I call a lot of that stuff LOG+ lol). If I was a little more talented I'd try to port, as best you could, the "EOS Standard" profile from my C300 to my 55 to use for most of my sit-downs.[/QUOTE]
I often shoot Custom, not because I prefer the look, but because I don't post my own shows and I think my clients are far better off if I give them a finished look than if I leave them to their own devices because most of them don't know how to color grade. There's a big difference on the forum between shooters who grade their own shows and those who don't. With clients who request Log and are comfortable doing their own grading then of course I do happily comply.
More often than not when I show a client a baked in Slog3 look they still find it too flat and generally I do also. That is particularly true with LC709A and also true with LUT's I have made that are a little punchier using LUTCALC and the Varicam Curve . I plan to try some even punchier ones but already have made a wide variety of LUT's specifically for different LED's, Kinoflo's, tungsten nighttime living rooms and typical fluorescent interiors to take off the green. I also have a whole set of Tiffen Mired shift correction filters, so I could bake in a LUT and make it a little warmer or cooler for the situation. After all that work though I generally just shoot Custom because the contrast and saturation are controllable, its fast and my clients are pleased with their take home look. I also prefer a "Rich Look" and want it to look as much like film as possible.
I find that I generally get perfectly nice flesh tones and overall color though I usually tweak gammas , saturation, phase and black level to the shot. When I can I also light carefully. Morgan would call that "old school" but I think its just ordinary careful camera work. A year ago I posted a bunch of comparisons of interview shots to see how many people could guess which were shot with Custom (Dread Sony Look) and which with Log. Absolutely no one got it right!
I will tend toward Slog3 and baked in look if its bright sunny exteriors or extreme contrast situations.
I think there are plenty of good Custom settings out there from Abel Cine, Alistair Chapman, Doug Jenson etc.
I created a Matrix years ago with a Sony EX-1 and it has worked exactly the same on an F3 and FS7 though for some reason I had to tweak the phase on the FS7 and a DSC chart looks somewhat distorted on a Vectorscope with the FS7. However I can still match my EX-1 to the FS7 or F3 just by sticking with the same Matrix. I always use the same matrix but adjust everything else to the nature of the scene's contrast.
So for what its worth here are my settings. You may love them or hate them and I'm not convinced they look exactly the same on every camera - especially the phase setting which is a little mysterious to me:
Step Gamma ( I think that's what its called) .40 (.45 is more standard but I think the FS7 looks too contrasty at 0.45 and doesn't match other Sony cameras when they're set to 0.45) ( probably only active for Std Gamma)
Gamma - I use Std 5 when lighting is controlled, or tend towards Hypergammas 7 & 8 (mostly 7) when I need to deal with hot spots, windows or outdoors. Often HG4 for interviews. HG 4 has less roll off than 7 and is safer for faces on interviews.
User Matrix ON
Adaptive Matrix ? ( what the hell is that anyway)
Preset Matrix - Hi Sat usually
Level - 0 or +2 to taste
Phase -7 ( to taste - varies with shot and especially with skin tones)
Black level - To taste - For Std gamma -2, but lower for Hypergammas . Every gamma and scene wants a different back level.
The Matrix settings are the main thing and these I never touch - too complicated:
R-G + 64
R-B - 10
G-R + 5
G-B 0
B-R - 5
B-G - 21
If you like the Matrix settings please label them the "Lenny Look" in your camera.
So that's my 2 cents for a useable approach to Custom.
Lenny
More often than not when I show a client a baked in Slog3 look they still find it too flat and generally I do also. That is particularly true with LC709A and also true with LUT's I have made that are a little punchier using LUTCALC and the Varicam Curve . I plan to try some even punchier ones but already have made a wide variety of LUT's specifically for different LED's, Kinoflo's, tungsten nighttime living rooms and typical fluorescent interiors to take off the green. I also have a whole set of Tiffen Mired shift correction filters, so I could bake in a LUT and make it a little warmer or cooler for the situation. After all that work though I generally just shoot Custom because the contrast and saturation are controllable, its fast and my clients are pleased with their take home look. I also prefer a "Rich Look" and want it to look as much like film as possible.
I find that I generally get perfectly nice flesh tones and overall color though I usually tweak gammas , saturation, phase and black level to the shot. When I can I also light carefully. Morgan would call that "old school" but I think its just ordinary careful camera work. A year ago I posted a bunch of comparisons of interview shots to see how many people could guess which were shot with Custom (Dread Sony Look) and which with Log. Absolutely no one got it right!
I will tend toward Slog3 and baked in look if its bright sunny exteriors or extreme contrast situations.
I think there are plenty of good Custom settings out there from Abel Cine, Alistair Chapman, Doug Jenson etc.
I created a Matrix years ago with a Sony EX-1 and it has worked exactly the same on an F3 and FS7 though for some reason I had to tweak the phase on the FS7 and a DSC chart looks somewhat distorted on a Vectorscope with the FS7. However I can still match my EX-1 to the FS7 or F3 just by sticking with the same Matrix. I always use the same matrix but adjust everything else to the nature of the scene's contrast.
So for what its worth here are my settings. You may love them or hate them and I'm not convinced they look exactly the same on every camera - especially the phase setting which is a little mysterious to me:
Step Gamma ( I think that's what its called) .40 (.45 is more standard but I think the FS7 looks too contrasty at 0.45 and doesn't match other Sony cameras when they're set to 0.45) ( probably only active for Std Gamma)
Gamma - I use Std 5 when lighting is controlled, or tend towards Hypergammas 7 & 8 (mostly 7) when I need to deal with hot spots, windows or outdoors. Often HG4 for interviews. HG 4 has less roll off than 7 and is safer for faces on interviews.
User Matrix ON
Adaptive Matrix ? ( what the hell is that anyway)
Preset Matrix - Hi Sat usually
Level - 0 or +2 to taste
Phase -7 ( to taste - varies with shot and especially with skin tones)
Black level - To taste - For Std gamma -2, but lower for Hypergammas . Every gamma and scene wants a different back level.
The Matrix settings are the main thing and these I never touch - too complicated:
R-G + 64
R-B - 10
G-R + 5
G-B 0
B-R - 5
B-G - 21
If you like the Matrix settings please label them the "Lenny Look" in your camera.
So that's my 2 cents for a useable approach to Custom.
Lenny
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icarusfilm
Veteran
I use slog2 in custom usually with blacks down to -8 to -12 in extreme highlight situations like this car shot:
just needs a little push in post contrast saturation
just needs a little push in post contrast saturation
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icarusfilm
Veteran
jasonbrooks
Well-known member
I've used Slog3 in custom with matrix OFF for probably 80% of what I've ever shot with the FS7. So much obs doc/verite shooting is made hugely less stressful with this combo. For example, I can walk with two subjects conversing through city blocks from full sun to deep shade without fear of blowing (or having to ride the iris constantly, spoiling those sections), and then follow one into an office and push-WB against a grey/white wall to continue under a horrendous mixed flouro mess, all without stopping rolling.
Love it.That said, the other 20% when I have enough control to use CineEI, I DO notice the improved colour rendition, and love that too.
On a side-note, is anyone aware if there's a technical basis for the limited 3x WB presets in EI, or is it more likely to have been a 'design choice' by Sony?
Cheers,
jason
jason
Liam Hall
Veteran
My camera has over 900 hours on it. I reckon probably less than two have been spent in custom mode. Can some of you custom shooters post a link to actual footage you've shot rather than just stills? Icurusfilm's frames look lovely and all, but I'd rather see actual moving pics. Cheer all.
icarusfilm
Veteran
Color is def. better in cine EI, the Arris have a very tweakable CineMode which allows to create looks and burn them in. Sony has that in theory but in praxis burning in Luts on the sony is in my eyes a non starter I don't care how many people swear by it.