FS7: Mixed light conditions Custom or Cine IE ?

[Liam Hall]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around why some people have such an aversion to "Custom" mode. We have shot for YEARS with custom matrix settings "burned-in" on F900's, VariCam's, etc. with arguably awesome results, that didn't have to be touched in post(or very little). LOG is a nice tool to have, but it's not fool proof. It's a lot easier to have your footage messed up being shot LOG, than with the look already baked in, if the client doesn't know how to grade.

I used to shoot on Varicam and Sony F800 cameras. I always liked the colour from the Panasonic, the Sony not so much, but the main reason I shoot Cine EI 99.9% of the time is control , but yes, if the client isn't taking advantage of that, it's time to change what I give them.

 

[morgan_moore]

T

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around why some people have such an aversion to "Custom" mode. We have shot for YEARS with custom matrix settings "burned-in" on F900's, VariCam's, etc. with arguably awesome results, that didn't have to be touched in post(or very little). LOG is a nice tool to have, but it's not fool proof. It's a lot easier to have your footage messed up being shot LOG, than with the look already baked in, if the client doesn't know how to grade.

I think there is suspicion not rationality to be anti custom.

For example we came to the fs7 by different routes f900 fs100 - I can well beleive the f900 looks great in any mode.. And believe the fs100 looks like nuclear horror in any setting.

So my concept of the sony look was established by the fs100. And the horrific experience of trying to dial it with no wfm and only fcp7

I fully admit I should revisit custom.

Also from day one I have said custom slog matrix off is the best way to shoot log in low light

 

[icarusfilm]

the next iteration of fs7's f55's etc, might have an Arri like in camera tweak able LUT functionality which will actually enable you to burn in a look that isn't an option with the currant setup. I would always much prefer to shoot in CineEi but when dealing with broadcast clients who are extremely hesitant to changes (most of my german clients are stuck in the mid nineties) Its just safer to deliver in a form that only requires a touchup. The problem is like always the unfulfilled dream of all producers: Never have to wait for anything never have to make decisions or plan anything. They always hope that this "new thing" will get them there "so we don't need any lighting?" No- we still need it

 

[LennyLevy]

You can show someone in 5 minutes how to apply a LUT , but you can't teach them to "See". That's what your hired for as a DP, not just to know how to use a camera and expose in Log.

If you are shooting Log and handing off to a genuine colorist as you would on any high end production then you have a collaborationist in the look. You're no longer in full control but that's all part of the business and it may look better than you had imagined on set. However if the person in charge of grading isn't so skilled - and most small producers and many editors aren't - then many of the subtleties will get lost or never get applied . Those are the things that can make an image "sing". Even if you shoot Custom the final grade will often be disappointing because all video can use grading in the final edit.

Actually I'm amazed at how many people who hand off Log on this thread say that 50% of the time the results are disastrous. Frankly I'd take bad plastic Sony look over the proliferation of flat "semi log" video that seems to be all over the place now on the web.

If you shoot Custom, you may lose a little DR (which you often don't need anyway) and probably sacrifice some potential color subtlety but you have a leg up on controlling the Look. I don't buy that you can't escape the "plastic Sony look" if you know what you're doing.

So its just another tool and appropriate or not depending on your situation.

BTW - RED has a far superior method for offering a Log/Raw type file in that the Red Color version that you've shot goes directly to the client. They see that before having access to the Raw file and may not bother to do anything to it. You still can't control saturation and black level but it gets you much closer. And both RED and Arri at least let you set the color temp and green magenta balance. Sony takes more control away from the DP who doesn't grade.

Yes you can send the LUT over to the client with your footage but unless the LUT is the same for every shot it is cumbersome to deal with and many colorists I've talked to laugh and say they never bother to look at the DP's LUT. Of course on a major feature or commercial LUt's created on set are used i the process but we're not really talking about that level of work here. That's for CML discussion group

By the way I've shot lovely stuff with an FS100 and with SD Beta camera's well before the F900 and Varicam's and so have many people on this forum. I had to work a hell of a lot harder though and it wasn't always possible.

 

[Liam Hall]

You can show someone in 5 minutes how to apply a LUT , but you can't teach them to "See". That's what your hired for as a DP, not just to know how to use a camera and expose in Log.

We're talking about applying a simple technical LUT and doing it correctly, not asking them to do a serious grade. At the very least I would expect a modern editor to be able to do this. Anything serious I turn up in person as I'm generally hired as a director/dop.

Actually I'm amazed at how many people who hand off Log on this thread say that 50% of the time the results are disastrous. Frankly I'd take bad plastic Sony look over the proliferation of flat "semi log" video that seems to be all over the place now on the web.

Not sure anyone said their results were disastrous, just that they could be better. For me, even badly processed Cine EI looks better than the Sony plastic look, but I know some of you are having success in custom mode and so want to at least explore it as an option for some of my less able clients. Thanks for posting your particular recipe BTW.

If you shoot Custom, you may lose a little DR (which you often don't need anyway) and probably sacrifice some potential color subtlety but you have a leg up on controlling the Look. I don't buy that you can't escape the "plastic Sony look" if you know what you're doing.

See, here's the thing, I don't want to lose DR, and I don't want to sacrifice colour subtly and I don't buy the 'if you know what you're doing trope about Sony colours. I've seen countless jobs shot in custom mode that just look 'meh'.

Yes you can send the LUT over to the client with your footage but unless the LUT is the same for every shot it is cumbersome to deal with

It's a doddle in Premiere.

By the way I've shot lovely stuff with an FS100 and with SD Beta camera's well before the F900 and Varicam's and so have many people on this forum. I had to work a hell of a lot harder though and it wasn't always possible.

I come from a film background, and my small brain can understand treating the FS7 like a film stock. It's easy to get great results that way, but not always the fastest.

 

[LennyLevy]

The thing about DR is that there very often isn't anything in the shot that goes over HG or sometimes even standard in fact sometimes you want to increase the contrast. When there is it certainly makes sense to go over to Log . Unfortunately I've also seen countless jobs shot in Cine EI that also look meh.
I'm not trying to say Custom is superior to Log, Overall its not, but for many applications it might be a better choice for some DP's. I also come from a film background, but there it was standard policy for the DP to attend the timing session or the video transfer. When he didn't it was sometimes with bad results. I've seen good DP's fired over that when what they shot was no doubt fine.

 

[Liam Hall]

I don't disagree Lenny. Though I will add, all of my clients ask for log, I just think not all of them should get it!

 

[LennyLevy]

Interesting. Most of mine ask for WYSIWYG. Actually I wish I was shooting more log.

 

[Donny 123]

I dont see how you guys even have the choice.. i get a call or an email about a shoot.. then I ask about the tech details.. and there is some discussion about XYZ.. if they want LOG they say so.. if they don't they say no.. Its never my choice at the end of the day.. I could turn down a shoot because they dont want to shoot log..? its like I would demand to shoot 30p when they want to shoot 25p.. its their call .. but if they request LOG to cover my own arse I have it in writing that it will need a full grade in appropriate software ..