C300: mic and recorder? anything better then rode Ntg3?

anatusa

anatusa

Veteran
Hello

1. I am looking to Change my mic Rode NTG3! 1st i cant say i found a huge difference between my previous ntg2 mic, maybe a little better...

with my daytime job i mostly record audio with mic attached to my c300, and i mostly film inside(interior)! i used both and c300 mic holder and pearstone shock mount, but result is prety much the same.... when i hand hold the cam the mic produce like a wobling sound! i fact in post i can always hear that i filmed handheld! and its kind of ugly.

also it pics too much room tone/noise, and also it pics each focus adjustment i do, as well as if i push any of the buttons on my cam ntg3 pics it up as well.....

so i would like to find something better! any suggestions?

yes i know u cant film with mic on cam, and when i do something more fancy i dont do that, but with my regular job its what i have to do....

what do u think about that mic? any one used them? or plz give me your suggestions!

Sanken CS-1e Short Shotgun Microphone
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/791331-REG/Sanken_CS_1E_CS_1e_Short_Shotgun_Microphone.html

2. i looking to buy a separate audio recorder, i never had one , what would u suggest? what should i be aware of?

what do u think about these guys?

Tascam DR-100mkII
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

Tascam DR-680 8-Track Portable Field Audio Recorder
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673541-REG/Tascam_DR_680_DR_680_8_Track_Portable_Field.html

Edirol / Roland R-44 Solid-State Four-Channel Portable Field Recorder
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...4_R_44_Solid_State_Four_Channel_Portable.html

Regards
 
I think a better shock mount would alleviate a lot of your problems. The Rycote Invision series are fantastic. The INV7HG will fit your NTG-3.
 
If you can't tell the difference between an ntg3/ntg2 its because your using a poor pre-amp. As the owner of a variety of microphones the ntg3 is about as good as it gets under $1200(in terms of fidelity) and is almost unmatched in build quality. Most of the longer shotguns were not designed to be mounted on cameras and cause more problems then they solve when adapted.

Quality preamp
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...FBhx1Gp997m3kQaAj9S8P8HAQ&Q=&is=REG&A=details

If your hand holding the camera and need usable audio you should either use a lapel mic or invest in another shock mount(or perhaps the rubber bands are not strong enough for that kind of stabilization). Pearstone everything is pretty much junk, try using a rycote:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/880280-REG/Rycote_041118_INV_8_Microphone_Suspension.html

An external recorder for one man band setups is a hassle(setup, mounting, batteries, cables, monitoring) and I suggest you avoid it at all costs. Being the owner of over a dozen microphones I can happily tell you I never hesitate to grab the video mic pro for on the go audio.
 
LeoGrey said:
An external recorder for one man band setups is a hassle(setup, mounting, batteries, cables, monitoring) and I suggest you avoid it at all costs. Being the owner of over a dozen microphones I can happily tell you I never hesitate to grab the video mic pro for on the go audio.
Click to expand...

i dont need external recorder for 1 man band with my regular work. but as i told i sometimes do a more fancy / serious short movies and will use external recorder for that kind of work...... last time when i felt like i need external recorder was simple children movie (acting class for children), they created their own scenario and were actors in that movie.... the director wanted all to be filmed handheld.... there were no budget at all.... so no pro sound guy, but there were an extra person who hold the boom with my ntg 3..... but the problem was - ntg3 was connected to my cam as well as his headphones, and he had to run near me, i was all over the cords, and it sucks really....

so i do need a sound recorder from time to time, pus extra xlr for lav mics.... nice to have....
 
I use the NTG-3 on my C100 and have never noticed any noise transmitted from the camera. All I did was stick some rubber in the mic holder. It sounds like you need to try out different mic suspension methods.

About the only mic that will work better for your needs is the Sanken CS-3e. Not the CS-1e. But, really, the shotgun microphone should only be considered a backup for a lapel mic if you are doing one man interviews.
 
Interesting, because I just posted about this on the BM site. The Rode does not like handling noise. They're great mikes, comparable to much higher end choices, as long as you don't touch them - even hands moving on a boom pole with a good shock mount gets picked up. I have the NTG-1 and do use it mounted on my pocket camera, but I also have a great 20+ year old AT and a Sennheiser 416.

Personally, I've never liked lapel mics - my opinion only, but I really hate the way they look, and if you try to hide them you can get clothing rustle or muffled audio - I often use the Sennheiser on-camera (C100) to record extemporaneous interviews (up to 4 or 5 feet ) and ambient audio (I make documentaries). For formal interviews or narrative, I have a sound man with a pole, and he either hardwires to my camera, or uses a wireless from his mixer if we move a lot.
 
Replace your shockmount. I use the Sanken CS1e and am blown away by the sound quality everytime I use it.
 
i highly recommend the Sanken CS3E. i did a field comparison between the Senn 416& the CS3E & the NTG1 (ok not very fair) using the Tascam DR680. test was done with a boom operator on actors dialogue in outside and inside locations.

i like (and have used) the workhorse 416 overall but inside in tighter spaces the Sanken really beat it out. typically you get bad coloration in smaller spaces when a wall is in the equation and the 416 is not very good. likewise my ME66 & NTG1 are not good either which seems to be typical of shotguns inside when aiming at a wall.

the CS3E was very tolerant of walls and not giving the odd reflections to anywhere near that all other shotguns I've experienced.

i haven't heard the NTG3 firsthand but i suspect it is a fine mic and the price is good and people love it but from what i read (extensively) i decided too go with the Sanken even though its near twice as much.

i don't own it but the audio guy i work with frequently uses the DR680. its very quiet for its price category which make it a no brainer. still if i was going to invest my own money id take a hard look at the Sound Devices which seems to sit more at the top of recorders although i have never touched one. i have to occasionally use my H4n which is average at best. if the DR-100mkII uses the same preamps as the DR680 then id say that would be a very very fine unit at its price point. still if i was going to personally buy one id look into the sound devices. i have a Juiced Link i attach sometime but not often.

i read often enough that the CS3E was more sensitive to humidity than other mics where the NTG3 seems almost immune. my audio guy has used the CS3E with me a lot and also in "misty" & humid situations (dead cat on). i would get nervous but have never had an issue. i did buy the extended warranty from B&H though.

a few people here have stressed that a better recorder making the difference and i agree completely. its half of the equation. one long project I've been working on acquired the DR680 and it has performed well. still i wish they would have bought an even higher end recorder but we needed at times a lot of channels and the DR680 was by far the more attractive choice while being pretty cheap and "quiet". also i think the guy who bought it paid around $700 if I'm not mistaken. i notice that its now $500 on B&H.

good luck
david
 
The NTG3 is not an interior mic (except when trying to isolate very specific sound effects in dialogue-free scenes), let alone an on-camera mic. It's extremely poorly suited for that job, though it is more forgiving than the 416 by a bit. Get something like an MKH50 for shooting interiors, but seriously get a sound person. Camera direction sound is your LAST choice generally for decent audio. An NTG3 on camera is a really, really scary choice to make. I understand that you probably are only using the audio for reference (as that set up is essentially unusable for production sound), but still you could choose a much better reference mic. I've used a 416 for reference audio and it's obviously garbage, but using a similar mic run to camera on a boom pole can result in totally adequate sound.

The pre-amps on the C300 should be better than those on a low end recorder (much better), but you could use a mixer like a 302 for good results. Not sure how the Tascam recorder measures up, could be decent for all I know.

But seriously, if any of this audio is meant for actual commercial use get a sound person. An on-camera shotgun is right on par with shooting with the lens cap on in terms of extreme incompetence. The fault doesn't lie with the NTG3, but with your technique.
 
The OP asked about mic solutions for getting the best sound possible on his C300 when operating alone. Given this constraint, and having had to operate this way myself, I find that the best way to get useable sound is to put a wireless lav on the speaker. It's the quickest way to get a mic as close as possible to the speaker, which is ultimately the best way to get decent sound in most uncontrolled environments. You can also give a handheld reporter's mic the speaker if that works. Alternately, a C stand, boom holder, and boom pole can get great sound if you have time to set-up and the speaker isn't moving. I've never personally had trouble with handling noise on my NTG-3 when attached to a camera or when operating a boom, so I am inclined to agree that the problem may be placement of the mic, the cable, or the shockmount. I can't think of a time when I've ever actually used the sound from a shotgun mounted on a camera except for ambient noise during b-roll, though. If I was to use an on camera mic for interviews, though, I would probably pick up a CS3e even though I've never used one. From all reports, it has the best directionality and off axis sound reduction without the normal problems of a line gradient mic like the NTG-3.

Regarding the DR-680, it is a great recorder for the money. It is my primary recorder when I do location sound work. It's not a good mixer though as it doesn't have true line level out, so it requires a little bit of work if you want to send a mix to camera. Also, it isn't great for doing quick level changes or ISO checks due to the menu system. I actually use a sound devices mixer in front of the 680 so that I can have good control of my boom levels. My wireless mics go directly to the 680 as I don't ride the levels on my wireless. The preamps on the 680 are better than the H4N and DR100. I would definitely not suggest using the H4N with an NTG3 as you start to get into gain levels that are noticeably hissy on the H4N. I haven't used any of Zooms newer recorder so I don't know they would be any better in terms of the noise floor at high gain.

Ultimately, recording direct to camera rather than dual system can make your life a bit easier as an editor. In that case, a Sound Devices MM-1 and a breakaway cable for the boom op can be a decent and inexpensive way to get decent sound as long as you aren't actually running around while shooting.
 
Policar said:
Are you recording dialogue inside?
Click to expand...

yes, as well as moving and following people.... and there is not cuts, cant make a pause and record anything separately, but its not something serious...., i cant use a sound person with that....., i just want to get a best sound possible with that situation....

i loooked at sound device and i fill like the price for all in one device(recorder and mixer) will kill me.....

i am thinking maybe to get a recorder and a mixer separately....
 
in general, when i choose mic that will record as less as possible of unwanted noises? is it signal to noise ratio? the lower number the better?
 
signal to noise ratio is the difference between the signal and the noise floor. bigger is better. it does not refer to rejection of unwanted sounds or handling noise. it refers to the hissing sound present in all amplified sound. high SNR makes for cleaner recordings. off axis rejection refers to the mics ability to reject unwanted sound sources.
 
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Policar said:
Are you recording dialogue inside?
Click to expand...
Audio guys may not like it, but I have recorded dialogue directly to the C300 in many instances and the clients are fine with it. However, not when the microphone is on camera as the distance is beyond its range. My previous response was only to indicate that I don’t get noise like the OP when the microphone is mounted on the camera.

For sit down interviews I use a longer cable and my partner uses the boom to place the microphone in rycote zeppelin close to the subject. At times even I boom from the floor. That way I have got fine results recording directly to the C300. I have seen that unless you push and pull the dialogue a lot, recording to the C300 is not a problem.

Placing the microphone directly on camera means you need to increase the volume/microphone gain and it quickly becomes unusable. So I am not a big advocate for recording dialogue when the microphone is camera mounted.

For some subjects I simply can't place a wireless or a wired lavalier on their body. For example while doing interviews of village women for a documentary, it becomes difficult to hide the lavalier and also the subjects don't like it. I glance at my partner and if she shakes her head then it means no lavalier for the women folk. So in those cases there is no way but to use the boom microphone. In these documentary situations, at times the ambient noise is the issue. For eg. some songs playing at a distance. In such situations it is a must to record to the SD 702T because some kind of audio massaging is definitely needed.


The reason for two examples is that there are few situations where it is ok to record directly to the C300.

Day before yesterday I finished the last shot for a feature film. I had shot as the 2nd unit camera for a feature film. The director suddenly called me because he discovered that one shot had to be retaken. That shot was earlier done by the main unit. It was a dialogue of one actor and I had to take it in a living room. So I called the actor to my house, and shot him. The microphone was placed close to him and I was recording directly to C300 as the scene was to be dubbed in the studio. When I sent the shot, the studio guys were wondering because there was no noise and the sound was fine. However it is important to have consistency in the microphone used, so they had to do the dubbing of sound.

I have been trying to see the difference between recording to the C300 vs double sound and have realised that when proper care is taken the dialogues recorded to C300 is fine. However, for all nature sounds I always use the SD702T as I am definitely going to do a lot of push pull to the audio.

Having said all of the above, I must state that the audio controls in the C300 can't be manipulated while the filming is on as there would be vibrations. For drama the actor may start speaking in a soft voice and then suddenly yell. So it is always better to use a mixer so that audio controls are off camera.
 
anatusa said:
yes, as well as moving and following people.... and there is not cuts, cant make a pause and record anything separately, but its not something serious...., i cant use a sound person with that....., i just want to get a best sound possible with that situation....

i loooked at sound device and i fill like the price for all in one device(recorder and mixer) will kill me.....

i am thinking maybe to get a recorder and a mixer separately....
Click to expand...

As others have already pointed out, wireless lavs are your best solution.
The shotgun is directional, which is good for isolating the source in front of the camera, but indoors there are a lot of reflections off the walls that will get picked up. A big room with tile floors and bare walls will have lots of echoes when recorded with a shotgun mic, but a lav will pick up much more of the speakers voice vs the echoes and ambient noise. Night and day difference.
 
I have a NTG3 and love it...great mic. I used many times a Sennheiser 416 (great mic by the way) but don't feel the need to ''upgrade'' my Rode. Results are pretty darn good for a 700$mic. Have used a NTG2 a few times. The NTG3 is quite better.
 
Andrius Simutis said:
As others have already pointed out, wireless lavs are your best solution.
The shotgun is directional, which is good for isolating the source in front of the camera, but indoors there are a lot of reflections off the walls that will get picked up. A big room with tile floors and bare walls will have lots of echoes when recorded with a shotgun mic, but a lav will pick up much more of the speakers voice vs the echoes and ambient noise. Night and day difference.
Click to expand...

some certain shotguns are immune to indoor reflections, for example Sanken CS-3e due to its unique design.
 
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