GH5 MFT lenses VS "the greats"

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filmguy123

Veteran
One thing I am curious in lately is, how do the best MFT lenses compare against timeless classics, and the best modern lenses?

This is a hard test to quantify due to the different image rendering characteristics traditionally seen on m43 cameras, such as electronic sharpening and optical corrections employed on olympus and to a greater extent panasonic camera bodies. It's also a hard test to quantify even with native manual glass, because comparing FF image characteristics to a small m43 sensor and the way the image is handled in camera (not withstanding the electronic optical corrections and sharpening), but things like oversampling, forced NR, etc. etc. have tended to give the smaller sensor cameras a different image that makes comparing the glass itself more difficult (hard to seperate the glass from unique image processing that's been done in camera).

With that in mind, perhaps a more "raw" camera like the BM PCC 4K - especially with an OLPF added - could assist in this. Now that M43 sensors are maturing, and a camera like BMD outputs raw, skips electronic corrections, and doesn't (well, we will see I suppose, but assumedly) do so many NR / Sharpening tricks in processing...

Sorry for the long intro.

So my question is, are there are any tests, thoughts, etc (and if not, possibility of seeing such) on stacking up MFT lenses vs Leica R, Zeiss Contax, Nikkors, Canon FD, Canon L, Zeiss Milvus, etc. etc.?

I still have a love for my Voigtlander Nokton glass set, but they're such a niche item, I can't really see much online in terms of tests/comparisons regarding how they fair against glass like Leica R and Zeiss Contax? To my eye, all else (ie sensor) being equal, this glass and the designs seem pretty great? But alas, I can never pop this onto a large sensor camera to compare.

I'd also be super curious to know how the new Leica set of 8-18, 12-60, 50-200 - and some of the primes, like the Leica 12 and the Leica 25 and Leica 42.5 for MFT fair when attached to a body like BMD that employs no corrections, when compared to glass like Zeiss Milvus or Leica R. Hold its own??

Do any such comparisons exist? Would you like to see these?

How is the quality of the best MFT glass? Are there genuinely any true classics, such as the Nokton 17.5 / 25 or the Leica Nocitron 42.5 amongst MFT glass that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the all time greats (say the legendary Zeiss 21 2.8 or Leica R Summicron 50mm, etc.)
 
I don't know. I thought the Veydra mini primes were pretty nice when I worked with them. But you know, in addition to the answers you'll get here, in two weeks, you could probably get a lot of great info (and perhaps some hands-on testing) at Koerner Camera in Portland... just down the street from you, right? :-)


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PNW Lens Summit, May 5th, Portland OR USA
A solid day of cinema glass for your delectation

By Adam Wilt

Last year’s Pacific Northwest Lens Summit was hugely successful*, so they’re doing it again: a day-long open house at Koerner Camera in Portland, Oregon on Saturday, May 5th from 10am to 5pm.

Most—possibly all—of the big names in cinema glass will be there, showing off primes and zooms; spherical, aspherical, and anamorphic lenses; adapters, converters, controllers, and focus-assist accessories; lenses for 2/3″ video on up to full-frame and possibly beyond. It’s not just the glass, either, it’s the folks behind the glass, like Les Zellan from Cooke, Jeff Cree from BandPro, and Matthew Duclos from Duclos Lenses (of course!), to name only a few. Check out the names on this Instagram post for an idea of who’s likely to be there.

Rest of his post, including a link to his writeup of last year's event here:
https://www.provideocoalition.com/pnw-lens-summit-may-5th-portland-usa/

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Homepage for the Lens Summit, which doesn't currently have a whole lot of info:
https://www.lenssummit.com
 
A wise man once said all lenses look the same at f/8, ha.

Your Voigtlanders are classics...keep them forever as they are amazing lenses. I had the 17.5mm glued on the pocket and BMCC for 3 years. The Blackmagics love the Voigts and Veydras.

As far as any comparisons between lenses, you will receive hundreds of thoughts throughout your career from all walks of life, but in the end, does anyone see these differences on the screen? Probably not unless you're comparing unrealistic inequality side by side.

Lens characteristics - color, contrast, bokeh, motion, micro contrast, general image rendering, etc - will vary among lenses, but keep in mind many times you're paying a premium more for build quality and the name than anything else.

I don't have any support for you comparing MFT lenses to traditional Hollywood $100K kits, but when I was at one point interested in purchasing and having at least one Cooke in my life, I came across some of Shane's test comparing them to the Xeens, Canon CN-Es and Zeiss CP.2s.

Maybe just a comparison like this may enlighten you in some way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGIYEHR-yu4 (I found it interesting how different lenses may render a face differently.)

That one is just on the 50mm but he does a bunch of various lens tests...like for example he threw on the 17.5mm on the GH4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gqN5JYp-2Y
 
I’ve long been a fan of both 4/3 and MFT.

It’s always hard to compare lenses to full size 135 format lenses because they’re made for very different purposes.

I recall a long time ago on DP review they said the Olympus 50mm F2 macro in 4/3 mount was the sharpest lens they ever measured. It’s no longer there I just looked.

Then you occasionally get these tests and reviews.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/01/finally-some-m43-mtf-testing-25mm-prime-lens-comparison/

They say this about the excellent Olympus 25mm 1.2 PRO

“This is actually very good for an f/1.2 lens, much better than the Canon 50mm f/1.2, for example.”

I find these interesting because I believe they are testing the lens, not the lens and body together.

MFT was designed to be telecentric so it makes sense that lenses SHOULD be able to perform better.
There’s not the legacy issue of trying make 135 format lenses work and then the lens shading issues that alway introduces on the camera side.

JB
 
There are lots of great lenses in the MFT ecosystem. Unfortunately, topics like this always devolve into "serious butt kicking" nonsense.
 
Tom Roper said:
There are lots of great lenses in the MFT ecosystem. Unfortunately, topics like this always devolve into "serious butt kicking" nonsense.
Click to expand...

People often forget that lenses made for a specific format (i.e. Veydra lenses made for MFT sensors) can significantly out resolve lenses made for a much larger format (i.e. Zeiss CP.2 lenses made to cover up to Full Frame sensors) when both lenses are used on the same MFT format. I own eight Nikon AI-S Full Frame lenses that I use with my GH5 when I want a softer and lower resolution look compared to dedicated MFT lenses. It's always nice to have the option of shooting with softer high quality FF lenses when I want this look.

I completely agree with Roger Cicala that the demand for dedicated MFT lenses will increase as we transition to 4K and eventually 8K delivery, because adapted Full Frame lenses may not have enough resolution when used with MFT cameras. ( they would be totally fine shooting 8K with Full Frame cameras )
 
The Pocket 4k is going to explode the sales of m43 lenses and focal reducers and may open up the door to more options in the future. For example I would love to see Rokinon focus more energy on m43 based cinema lenses vs FF glass adapted. FF can never resolve the same detail on a m43 sensor as it will o na FF sensor due to the glass being designed to work with the FF sensor size. The glass needs to resolve that 35mm size sensor array of pixels. Give it a smaller area and you are trying to resolve a full image from only a portion of the lens.

Rokinon has made a couple of specific m43 mount of f1.2 lenses that are much sharper and detailed than their FF versions of those lenses when used on the same m43 body. The glass is better designed to work with the smaller sensors and I have often thought about getting some of those vs the FF versions. Means I'm stuck using that lens on a m43 body but at f1.2 I don't really care about the lack of ability to use a focal reducer anymore to help the sensitivity. FF Rokinon lenses look pretty horrible wide open and these f1.2 lenses look much better so realistically they are probably brighter in a more usable way than a FF Rokinon with a SpeedBooster.

Plus with the new Pocket 4k if I ever move away from a GH camera to more of a cinema camera I am 99% sure it will be to the Pocket 4k which these f1.2 lenses will look stunning on.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185695-REG/rokinon_rn50m_mf_50mm_f_1_2_aps_c_w_a.html
 
The question is not clear - most full frame lenses are designed to resolve about 5k over 35 odd MM - when u use only half the image circle you would only expect about 2.5k res

Mft lenses should be designed to deliver 4odd k over that image circle.

While I'm a huge fan of retro stills glass it can hit a wall for mft or more specific to my case s16 sized sensors
 
What about other parameters - micro contrast, CA, distortion, character, etc.

It sounds like the quality of these lenses could stand shoulder to shoulder with Leica R, Zeiss Contax, or modern glass like Canon L, Sigma Art, etc.?

They are that good - just niche?
 
Let's assume this new Pocket takes off like crazy and everyone buys one and dumps their Canon/Sony/Nikon/Panasonic DSLR/mirrorless camera, will that be enough to get Cooke to make m43 specific lenses? Will this boost Veydra into a bigger player? What about SLRMagic? Samyang has the knowledge and factories to make this mount specific lenses, but it isn't their kind of business model. Their model is make what you can fit to the most widely used business model, and adapt for other mounts to save money on the expensive lens design. Maybe they wioll bring out some XEEN m43 specific lenses, but it isn't really their business model to do so.

I will be interested to see how something like an adapted FD lens compares to the same focal length in something like a Veydra. But right now Veydra are out of my reach as I'm not making money with this stuff. And other than a lot of breathing, I'm getting good FHD out of my FD lenses. But I'm probably an exception, it would be nice to expand my understanding of working with RAW by working with RAW, but I have no need to be working with RAW or 4K right now.
 
Thomas Smet said:
The Pocket 4k is going to explode the sales of m43 lenses and focal reducers and may open up the door to more options in the future. For example I would love to see Rokinon focus more energy on m43 based cinema lenses vs FF glass adapted. FF can never resolve the same detail on a m43 sensor as it will o na FF sensor due to the glass being designed to work with the FF sensor size. The glass needs to resolve that 35mm size sensor array of pixels. Give it a smaller area and you are trying to resolve a full image from only a portion of the lens.

Rokinon has made a couple of specific m43 mount of f1.2 lenses that are much sharper and detailed than their FF versions of those lenses when used on the same m43 body. The glass is better designed to work with the smaller sensors and I have often thought about getting some of those vs the FF versions. Means I'm stuck using that lens on a m43 body but at f1.2 I don't really care about the lack of ability to use a focal reducer anymore to help the sensitivity. FF Rokinon lenses look pretty horrible wide open and these f1.2 lenses look much better so realistically they are probably brighter in a more usable way than a FF Rokinon with a SpeedBooster.

Plus with the new Pocket 4k if I ever move away from a GH camera to more of a cinema camera I am 99% sure it will be to the Pocket 4k which these f1.2 lenses will look stunning on.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185695-REG/rokinon_rn50m_mf_50mm_f_1_2_aps_c_w_a.html
Click to expand...

Yes, the Samyang/Rokinon cine lenses specially made for cropped mirrorless cameras (APS-C and M43) are great for M43 Video - I just bought a small set of them for a documentary film I am shooting on a GH5. I have the 12mm T2.2, the 21mm T 1.5 and the 50mm T1.2. They are sharp and have a really nice image quality, way better for film/video than the electronic Pana-Leicas (in my opinion), they are a joy to use for video with smooth focus and aperture ring, the build quality is decent, they are light and compact and really not very expensive.
 
filmguy123 said:
What about other parameters - micro contrast, CA, distortion, character, etc.

It sounds like the quality of these lenses could stand shoulder to shoulder with Leica R, Zeiss Contax, or modern glass like Canon L, Sigma Art, etc.?

They are that good - just niche?
Click to expand...

There are technical attributes and then there is character. You can have two lenses with identical technical quality and yet somebody would pay 3x as much for it due to character. Its one of the main reasons why we always wanted interchangeable lenses.

In terms of quality it is all very subjective but yes I think m43 glass can compete head on with FF glass if done right. It is exponentially easier to make a lens for a smaller sensor which is why APS-C lenses tend to do so well. We have a Sigma f1.8 set of zooms largely due to the fact that it didn't need to support a FF sensor. The larger the sensor the difficult it is to build a good lens with solid technical characteristics. m43 is even easier yet which is why we can have some amazing wide aperture lenses that perform as well las they do wide open.

Unfortunately Panasonic and Olympus are obsessed with in body correction which taints the look of the lenses to the lens purists. Veydras have proven just how stellar a hunk of m43 glass can be however if the right companies make those lenses. I am willing to bet that if Canon joined the m43 group they would be able to put out some stunning m43 glass due too their experience and R&D into lens design. Sadly that is about as likely of happening as me giving an acceptance speech at the 2019 Oscars. We need more companies like Veydra to jump in the game and build native m43 glass to take advantage of the format. Rokinon has shown us a native lens can perform much better but I don't think they sold very well lat all. I don't know anybody that actually has any of them and the reviews are super thin online. Its a lens mount a lot of people now ignore unless one needs a full electronic lens.
 
Greg_E said:
Let's assume this new Pocket takes off like crazy and everyone buys one and dumps their Canon/Sony/Nikon/Panasonic DSLR/mirrorless camera, will that be enough to get Cooke to make m43 specific lenses? Will this boost Veydra into a bigger player? What about SLRMagic? Samyang has the knowledge and factories to make this mount specific lenses, but it isn't their kind of business model. Their model is make what you can fit to the most widely used business model, and adapt for other mounts to save money on the expensive lens design. Maybe they wioll bring out some XEEN m43 specific lenses, but it isn't really their business model to do so.

I will be interested to see how something like an adapted FD lens compares to the same focal length in something like a Veydra. But right now Veydra are out of my reach as I'm not making money with this stuff. And other than a lot of breathing, I'm getting good FHD out of my FD lenses. But I'm probably an exception, it would be nice to expand my understanding of working with RAW by working with RAW, but I have no need to be working with RAW or 4K right now.
Click to expand...

If the Pocket takes off like crazy any company would be foolish not to make lenses for the mount. People build lenses to sell lenses and you sell lenses where the bodies are. Besides m43 is a well established lens mount that has been around for a very long time. It is also not owned by a single company and the closest we will likely ever get to an open lens standard that is open to anybody joining and does not require complex reverse engineering to use.
 
That's true about the lens control specs., I forgot about that part of the equation. Is it open or just part of a licensed group?
 
macobra said:
Yes, the Samyang/Rokinon cine lenses specially made for cropped mirrorless cameras (APS-C and M43) are great for M43 Video - I just bought a small set of them for a documentary film I am shooting on a GH5. I have the 12mm T2.2, the 21mm T 1.5 and the 50mm T1.2. They are sharp and have a really nice image quality, way better for film/video than the electronic Pana-Leicas (in my opinion), they are a joy to use for video with smooth focus and aperture ring, the build quality is decent, they are light and compact and really not very expensive.
Click to expand...

Thing is I bet they could be even better if they were built just for the m43 sensor size.
 
Greg_E said:
That's true about the lens control specs., I forgot about that part of the equation. Is it open or just part of a licensed group?
Click to expand...

Not entirely sure but I believe its pretty easy to get licensed since every odd unknown company seems to be joining the m43 group. If they can afford it with very low cost lenses I'm sure just about anybody could join the group.
 
Is the MFT mount large enough to be used properly with an S35 or FF sensor, or is it specifically useful only for the m43 sensor size?

If that's the case, it's a shame that an open mount wasn't made supporting up to FF sensor. Imagine a universal, open E-mount utilized for m43, s35, ff. 1 Mirrorless short flange distance mount to rule them all.

Would that even work? Or, could MFT technically do that?
 
Thomas Smet said:
Thing is I bet they could be even better if they were built just for the m43 sensor size.
Click to expand...

Maybe yes, but I think the market für MFT cine lenses is rather small and I was surprised what I get with the Samyangs for the money. My three lenses cost me as much as I pay for one Veydra Mini Prime. I think they can only be that affordable because Samyang is selling the same optics in two different housings and four or more different lens mounts. The Optics are made with high resolution APC-C mirrorless cameras in mind, but lenses have always their sweet spot in the center, so with a MFT sensor and a scaled down 4K image (8MP) resolution is absolutely fine, even wide open.
 
filmguy123 said:
Is the MFT mount large enough to be used properly with an S35 or FF sensor, or is it specifically useful only for the m43 sensor size?
Click to expand...

The JVC LS300 camera uses a Micro 4/3 lens mount for a Super35 size sensor, and has no problems using S35 and APS-C lenses. It's too bad that JVC did not put a better sensor in this camera because it seems to have fairly limited dynamic-range compared to the Panasonic GH4/GH5 cameras. I was very keen on this camera until I saw footage that appeared to be DR limited. It also originally shipped without a LOG profile, which was later fixed with a firmware upgrade. I wish the GH6 had a body design like the LS300 with a S35 sensor.
 
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