metadata-naming clips-and a Mac

J

john deaver

Well-known member
so....

is anyone successfully using the metadata functions with their 150

I'm shooting weddings and i would like to be able to have each of two cameras name and number the clips they create before they actual shoot them

like this would be ideal

smith Cam1 clp1
smith Cam1 clp2
smith Cam2 clp1
ext...

so i can never have duplicate file names and i can archive my "private" folders and my project files and delete the prorez files and be able to re-link everything if need be.


I know i can change names of stuff in the log and transfer window but i would prefer not to (spending less time loading footage was one of my goals with the 150 after all)

I did try panasonic metadata software....what a joke
I can create a metadata upload file and send it to an sd card and then acsess that with the camera but i have no way to know whether or not that data is geting recorded onto successive clips.

so anyone geting creative

is there even a mac program that will read the metadata.

at the moment I'm not even sure i am successfully adding any metadata to my clips.

has anyone else tryed to read the manual regarding metadata? i don't think it translated well

anyway, any help would be appreciated.

john deaver
 
your NLE must be able to tag a unique string to the filename right?.. might not necesarily be a camera name prefix but a unique sub-string would prevent any duplicate files...
 
I've figured out if i put each "private" folder in its own separate folder and then title the folder

"Smith jones"

That "Smith jones" becomes the Reel name

This is cool but the clips are still called clip#1, clip#2, Clip#3

Which FCP does a great job keeping track of. You can even delete your prorez files and tell it to batch capture like you would off tape and in launches the log and transfer window, finds the "private" folder and automatically reloads and re-links everything.

I think though if you where to ever reload anything in the wrong order, then it might get clip#1 and Clip#1 mixed up. (heck I get Clip#1 and Clip#1 mixed up)

Even if i can just get it to start with different numbers i can have one camera start at like clip#2001 (the 2 indicating Camera) and the other to start at Clip#1001

For me its about being able to back up just the cards and not huge prorez files.
 
John,
I sorta asked this question in another thread and no one responded. I will check out your soloution as it seems this is what I have been doing. I was on a shoot out of the country (first shoot witht the camera) and shooting up to 32 gigs a day in 1080. at night I was backing up the files in folders organized by date and then overnight transcoding to ProRes at least until I filled every portable hd I brought and then bought another 320 gig. I transcode on my Macbook Pro 17 2.16 intel core duo. Which I am holding off replacing until the Nehalem processors hit Macbook Pros.
I have set up a G5 edit system and want to transcode to dvc pro hd for the edit which will be easier on my slower G5 and then when the cut is done, go back and batch digitize from the original camera files to ProRes.
So what you are saying is if the folder name which is the reel number is organized then the batch digitize function should have no problem. I will do a test in the nedt day or so and see,
Brian

john deaver said:
I've figured out if i put each "private" folder in its own separate folder and then title the folder

"Smith jones"

That "Smith jones" becomes the Reel name

This is cool but the clips are still called clip#1, clip#2, Clip#3

Which FCP does a great job keeping track of. You can even delete your prorez files and tell it to batch capture like you would off tape and in launches the log and transfer window, finds the "private" folder and automatically reloads and re-links everything.

I think though if you where to ever reload anything in the wrong order, then it might get clip#1 and Clip#1 mixed up. (heck I get Clip#1 and Clip#1 mixed up)

Even if i can just get it to start with different numbers i can have one camera start at like clip#2001 (the 2 indicating Camera) and the other to start at Clip#1001

For me its about being able to back up just the cards and not huge prorez files.
Click to expand...
 
yes please test before you put a lot of stock in this
i have literally had the camera for less than a week and I'm just playing around and looking of a workable way to minimize the amount of data that i have to back up.

i have only tested so far with simple test projects

my procedure was as follows

1) shot 4 quick files,
2) moved the private folder into a folder called "card 1",
2) formated the card,
3) shot another couple of files and put that private folder into a folder called "card 2"
4)Logged and transfered everything,
5) did a quick edit,
6) saved the project file,
7)deleted the prorez files,
8)re-opened the project, got the "files are missing" text, hit continue,
9)selected all the offline clips and right clicked to recapture, log and transfer then found my "card 1" and "card 2" folder and re-transcoded,

The end result of which was a rebuilt project.

I do not know how this would be applicable to a Off-line/online situation nor do i know what it would take to make it work with a more complicated project. It might scale to larger projects or may go completely off the rails and you could end up with edit points all out of whack.

One thing we could do is what an engineer would do... figure out what it takes, or what we have to do to make this method NOT work, and then don't do those things.

i think changing the names of the folders will break this system.
Moving the folders around might break this system (this is my next test)

can anyone else think of anything that might go wrong?


BrianMurphy said:
John,
I sorta asked this question in another thread and no one responded. I will check out your soloution as it seems this is what I have been doing. I was on a shoot out of the country (first shoot witht the camera) and shooting up to 32 gigs a day in 1080. at night I was backing up the files in folders organized by date and then overnight transcoding to ProRes at least until I filled every portable hd I brought and then bought another 320 gig. I transcode on my Macbook Pro 17 2.16 intel core duo. Which I am holding off replacing until the Nehalem processors hit Macbook Pros.
I have set up a G5 edit system and want to transcode to dvc pro hd for the edit which will be easier on my slower G5 and then when the cut is done, go back and batch digitize from the original camera files to ProRes.
So what you are saying is if the folder name which is the reel number is organized then the batch digitize function should have no problem. I will do a test in the nedt day or so and see,
Brian
Click to expand...
 
According to some of the AVCHD advocates on this forum, you really need to preserve the entire directory structure of the SD card, the extra non-MTS files are the AVCHD local database for that particular card that has logical information for the clips on that card.. Apparently, raw filenames doesn't mean much. This Blu-ray file management is fine for blu-ray DVD, but a real idiotic management method for a capture medium..

So what you guys are saying is.. there is no automated workflow right now to distinguish clips which are from different cards but have the same filename? One method suggested was to manually rename the private folder from each card?
 
I am not suggesting we break up the "private" folder at all, just the opposite. Keep that folder intact and all its sub folders. I think that has been well established

Some non Final Cut users i think are disregarding the file structure and going straight for the .mts files but log and transfer inside final cut works so well (even with the clip name issues ) that it's not worth looking for another transfer application.

You can rename clips of course, ether during the log and transfer or after the fact. and final cut seams to be able to keep up with changes made. I just don't want to spend my time naming every clip if there is an automated solution.

Part of this is just my aversion to two clips named the same thing ( i just recently started using file names longer than 8 letters.....joke just for you users over 35)

Part of it is i want to be able to rebuild a project from a handful of data dvd's and not backup 300+ gigs of prorez files

Part of it is data/project management
Between myself and other editors in my employ i will do about 100 events this year (weddings and light corporate work) and like a lot of you i have terabytes upon terabytes of external hard-drives sitting on shelves. they are cheep but a $120 Hard drive for every other project hurts my bottom line not to mention my office keeps getting smaller
aditionaly i would prefer not to have 100 "clip#1"'s on my hard drives so I dont get confused

its as bad as loading tape for your projects and having "untitled 1" "untitled #2" ext....


Also update to the test project
If you move the card1 and card2 folders you can do this.....

Once you open your project and find your prorez files are offline you can no-longer just right click and batch capture them back because Final cut has no way of knowing where they went (and in the case of data dvd backups you may have just reloaded them anyway)

so i did this

1) open the log and transfer window
2) use the "add folder" funtion in the upper left and add all your card1, card2, ext folders to the list
3)CLOSE THE LOG AND TRANSFER WINDOW
4) select all offline clips in the bin and batch capture


Step 3 is important because if you just recapture Final cut starts numbering the clips from where it left off and doesn't associate the new clips with the ones that are gone. all your doing with step 2 is showing final cut where the folders are.

I got this idea from the fact that every time i open the log and transfer window it remembered where all the other private folders where.

again I'm just playing with all this so please don't take any of this to the bank and i would love for someone else to play with all this too and see if we can shoot holes in this workflow.

Later
John Deaver
www.mainstreetav.com



booggerg2 said:
According to some of the AVCHD advocates on this forum, you really need to preserve the entire directory structure of the SD card, the extra non-MTS files are the AVCHD local database for that particular card that has logical information for the clips on that card.. Apparently, raw filenames doesn't mean much. This Blu-ray file management is fine for blu-ray DVD, but a real idiotic management method for a capture medium..

So what you guys are saying is.. there is no automated workflow right now to distinguish clips which are from different cards but have the same filename? One method suggested was to manually rename the private folder from each card?
Click to expand...
 
pailes said:
Can you explain more detailed why this is so idiotic in your opinion? I would really love to hear about it.
Click to expand...

Can you explain the advantage of having a logical layer per card such that it is worth putting up with these difficulties of managing the MTS files at the physical level?
 
booggerg2 said:
Can you explain the advantage of having a logical layer per card such that it is worth putting up with these difficulties of managing the MTS files at the physical level?
Click to expand...

Of course I can. But as you seem to like answering to questions with another question here's one more for you:

How's an AVCHD recording of your holidays different from a self-authored Blu-Ray with some recordings of your holiday?

You have to consider the fact that AVCHD is originally a consumer format which allows for many features to make editing inside the camera possible. It even allows to create interactive menus and other fancy things, which can be viewed right inside the camera. Now, you may like it or not, AVCCAM is just AVCHD and Panasonic probably had their reasons to go with an established standard rather than do some proprietary error prone approach.
 
It's just nice having the files be portable. It'd be great if I could drag+drop the .mts files to different locations based on how I want to organize them. As it is, they're forever trapped in the PRIVATE folder for the card I shot it on.

Also, have we decided if it's possible to delete mts files out of the PRIVATE folder? IIRC that screws up the internal db. Does anyone know for sure?
 
wether or not the AVCHD/blu-ray file structure is a good one to use an an acquisition format or not doesn't really seem relevant.

fact is thats what the camera shoots, so.......

does any one have a large project they are willing to experiment with,

Say...... delete the prores files and then attempt to re-link everything

or know of a third party application that can deal with the AVCHD/Blu-ray file structure and metadata

later
john
 
am i to understand in PC land with native avchd editing (like in Vegas or Edios or whatever)the .mts are still locked up in the folder structure?

if so i think that says something about what is in the file structure.



TigerFX said:
It's just nice having the files be portable. It'd be great if I could drag+drop the .mts files to different locations based on how I want to organize them. As it is, they're forever trapped in the PRIVATE folder for the card I shot it on.

Also, have we decided if it's possible to delete mts files out of the PRIVATE folder? IIRC that screws up the internal db. Does anyone know for sure?
Click to expand...
 
pailes said:
Of course I can. But as you seem to like answering to questions with another question here's one more for you:

How's an AVCHD recording of your holidays different from a self-authored Blu-Ray with some recordings of your holiday?

You have to consider the fact that AVCHD is originally a consumer format which allows for many features to make editing inside the camera possible. It even allows to create interactive menus and other fancy things, which can be viewed right inside the camera. Now, you may like it or not, AVCCAM is just AVCHD and Panasonic probably had their reasons to go with an established standard rather than do some proprietary error prone approach.
Click to expand...

I answered with a question because I could see no practical benefit. Editing inside the camera + interactive menus + other fancy things are not advantages, at least not in the professional domain. You might enjoy those features for home videos however.

You're right, Panasonic used an existing standard which IMO is not suited for professional acquisition applications. Which is why the P2 cards names each clip's with a unique filename(much easier for management and archive). My frustration about the AVCHD naming standard is stemmed from this perspective. So no need to try to convince me that the AVCHD structure is superior to a simple file management system of unique naming. Panasonic could have modified the folder/filename structure but kept the same AVC codec and it would not affect playability of the SD media in devices like PS3 or their Plasma TVs.. That is unless you want to do interactive menus in-camera... which is not what I need.
 
Last edited:
I've found a much easier workflow rather than preserving the PRIVATE folder (and everything within it) is to use an ingestion program that will dynamically rename the file for each new card it ingests. You effectively end up with unique file names for each MTS file, and you can have all of your MTS files in one single folder. I use Photo Mechanic for ingestion.
 
booggerg2 said:
I've found a much easier workflow rather than preserving the PRIVATE folder (and everything within it) is to use an ingestion program that will dynamically rename the file for each new card it ingests. You effectively end up with unique file names for each MTS file, and you can have all of your MTS files in one single folder. I use Photo Mechanic for ingestion.
Click to expand...

i do something similar in effect, i copy over only the mts files into a single 'raw' folder. i name the folder something unique to differentiate between cards. i then use a file renaming utility to edit all the clips in that folder, usually adding a prefix to the filenames that is the same as the name of the folder.

then i transcode, start up my project and sort into bins.

the reason for the file renaming is that i've often discovered times when all i can see is the filename without the reference of the folder its in...and having an absolute reference and unique id for each file is critical for tracking and doing replaces and especially helpful for knowing what to archive.
 
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