Metadata for digital recording..

T

Thomas Mathai

Active member
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but this is what I'd like to see in the metadata from a Red recording:

Time of day stamp

The unique serial number of the camera with a running counter that says how many hours total the camera ever recorded, that's only factory set.

Timecode, even though I think timecode only works well when being used with physical media like tape. (Of course I worked on plenty of projects where all the tapes start at hour 1.)

Recorded resolution and frame rate.

Some sort of keycode equivalent, since not every workflow is timecode centric. DI systems like Lustre, only deal with image sequences, where timecode isn't going to help.

Camera report info, like production title, good take, bad take, etc. This would probably not be information that can be added in the heat of production, but it would be nice to include somewhere down the line.

It would be nice for REDCINE to carry over the metadata to whatever other formats the images till be converted to. As far as I know, DPX has a lot of header room for this sort of information.

Not sure about how much you can put into a Quicktime or AVI header, or other image formats. Maybe it would be nice for REDCINE to spit out a text file that summarizes the metadata info.
 
Metadata again

Metadata again

I think we've gone down this path once before, but Stuart if you are listening, some sort of digital slating mechanism would be great.

My experience with tapeless (P2 media) hasn't been the greatest from an editing standpoint. Log and captures from tape are incredibly boring to perform but at least they help get your media organized. Using P2 with FCP is pretty wonky because the clip names are all nonsense causing you to waste time renaming them all or putting them in a ton of bins.

What would be ideal is that the user could set day/reel/scene/take info at the camera level and have that stuff be maintained as it's brought into the NLE.

Typically, I name my clips to match slates (eg. SCN24A-1) where the scene number, shot and take are reflected in the name. This makes the bins easy to scan and reference back to a slate or even a shooting script. It also makes it wicked easy to relink media when you do the online/offline thing over and over.

Now, what I want to see is the AC entering the slate data at the top of a set of takes on a new shot (in my example SCN24A) and each clip being assigned a take number in series (SCN24A-1, SCN24A-2, etc.)

While we're entering the data, let's also print 5 frames of slate with the take information in the bottom corner of the frame as window burn so we can save time by leaving out the physical slate.

These don't have to be default settings but maybe they can be advanced options for those willing to think ahead a little.
 
Yes, yes, yes. I can't support this kind of idea enough.

We're in a digital age and there's absolutely no reason that we can't include pertinent metadata - at the camera level - and have it carry on into our post workflow. Every digital still photo I take contains all sorts of useful information in the EXIF - from shutter speed, ISO, and aperture values - all the way down to what camera model was used, what lens was used, what the focal length of that lens was set to, whether or not the flash fired, and all sorts of other useful information. The least we can add to our motion picture setup is a simple system for logging shot, take, and scene numbers so that the information is contained in an organized manner and transfers easily into the editing process.

We were promised something sort of like this with P2, but entering the data is extremely cumbersome and has to be done after you've offloaded all of the information to a computer with a clunky "viewer" that is slow and doesn't have a part of an efficient post workflow. Users want to shoot their footage and bring it into an NLE without having to take extra steps in the middle just to keep track of shot data. And I agree that the nonsense random naming is a nightmare.
 
And may I add that increments should be in "01", "001", "20060929-01", as we see fit, so that the numbers sort properly in a directory.

If the numbers simply increment as 1,2,3...10,11,12...20,21,22... and so on, without leading zeros, they sort (in Linux) as 1, 10, 11, 12...19, 2, 20, 21...29, 3, 30... etc.

The same holds true for alpha sorts. While Microsoft has kludged the sort in their directory so it sorts properly without leading zeros, as I said, it does not in Linux based systems. Apple is a Unix (although not a Linux.) I don't know how it would sort there.

I add my voice to the requests for options for automatic incrementing, and point out that as many leading zeros (or alpha and/or date patterns) as we ask for should be included.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to slate from the camera, both setting the slate internally - say via the web interface which has been suggested - and then simply by pressing a button which causes the internal slate to CLAP, either right side up or up side down, depending. Plus make a fixed tone. All with time code, director, etc, lens, speed, and so on. Wouldn't that be nice?

Yeah, I'm in dream city, right?

But please at least consider the first part of the request. Thanks.
 
As long as we are in dream city:

All this would be quite easy if the camera had some sort of Bluetooth capability. Somebody nearby with a keyboard could type in text like "good take, bad take,....". Text input in camera would normally be too cumbersum.

Everything else has been covered in the "digital slate" thread.

Jochen
 
At ARRI, they call this the "ICS" ( In-Camera-Slate ), it´s only available for the 35mm Arricam Lt and St, but has quite some of the features requested here. But it´s "burning" the data on the film visually which has to be read at telecine by a special reader-head for further use in audio-sync and the likes. The data is input via cable connection on a PDA.
 
Bluetooth functionality or keyboard inputs would be great, but not necessarily practical and I don't think you can assume that people will carry that around with them at all times. However, I think it would be very easy to set up the "digital slate" idea that has been thrown around, where the only variables you'd have to manipulate are the numbers for scene, shot, and take. That could easily be accomplished much like setting the date and time on current cameras, where you only need an "up" and "down" key to increase or decrease the value for each. Additionally, after you've set up the variables the first time, updating the 'slate' on a take-by-take basis would only require increasing one number on the display. That's something that should be easy to implement, and not just part of a "dream city."

That being said, we know nothing about the (G)UI yet, but I can't wait to see what direction they are taking. I think the effectiveness of a UI plays a huge role in the way that operators respond to a camera.
 
Digital Slate

Digital Slate

Haakon,

I totally feel you about it being as simple as a date and time thing. You should have a few simple format choices and then it pops them on the clip. Just being able to set a simple naming convention for the clips would be huge.

Advanced metadata should certainly be available via PDA or laptop of something but it does need to work in a basic fashion when you turn on the camera and just futz around with it a little in the menu to get going.

I think this is my most important feature request after the exposure tools which seem to be well in hand according to Graeme and Jim's descriptions.
 
The reality is that not many apps keep the metadata intact.

Even if a future version of FCP maintained all metadata info, the reality of post is such, that it would have to run to some app that won't maintain that metadata.
 
Josch said:
As long as we are in dream city:

All this would be quite easy if the camera had some sort of Bluetooth capability. Somebody nearby with a keyboard could type in text like "good take, bad take,....". Text input in camera would normally be too cumbersome.

Everything else has been covered in the "digital slate" thread.

Jochen
Click to expand...

Many have brought up wireless communication in other threads and I fully endorse the idea.

With wireless communication to the camera via bluetooth or 802.11g the options for interacting with the camera in a "real" interface really expand.

Id love to have my script supervisor sit on her laptop and mark good takes, name scenes, set digital slates, and enter other notes directly in the meta data of the camera. The camera could also send small thumbnails or movie clips to be attached to script notes being performed by the script/and or visual fx supervisor. Multiple connections to the camera would also be key as the script supervisor could be taking notes, while the visual fx supervisor creates his own report on various shots and the DP could be controlling the camera itself... all while sitting behind their comfy laptops.

To really integrate the meta data, the program that is running on your local laptop would be able to import your script so as you go through your shooting schedule, you could log takes, notes, etc directly in your script. All these reports could then be exported to pdf and ready to send to the editor, vfx house, etc.
 
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Emery Wells said:
Id love to have my script supervisor sit on her laptop and mark good takes, name scenes, set digital slates, and enter other notes directly in the meta data of the camera. The camera could also send small thumbnails or movie clips to be attached to script notes being performed by the script/and or visual fx supervisor. Multiple connections to the camera would also be key as the script supervisor could be taking notes, while the visual fx supervisor creates his own report on various shots and the DP could be controlling the camera itself... all while sitting behind their comfy laptops.
Click to expand...

This is not a "dream." There are a few systems in production right now that do this - and integrate with scripts and continuity on-set. They have various levels of integration and sophistication with offline, VFX, and finishing. But there are products out there that are starting to bridge the divide between what is traditionally hand-written "on-set metadata" and more standardized post-production metadata.

There are also several industry groups that are looking at these problems very seriously. I take part in the ASC Metadata Subcommitte (now THAT'S a geeky group...) and the integration and standardization of on-set metadata is the primary mission of that group.

If you're really interested in this, you should also subscribe or at least search through the archives of the AMIA-L - lots of good discussion there about metadata and metadata standardization.

Lucas Wilson
------------
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles
 
luki said:
This is not a "dream." There are a few systems in production right now that do this - and integrate with scripts and continuity on-set.

If you're really interested in this, you should also subscribe or at least search through the archives of the AMIA-L - lots of good discussion there about metadata and metadata standardization.

Lucas Wilson
------------
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles
Click to expand...


Hey Lucas, thanks for the info, ill take a look at the AMIA-L site. What are the products out there currently that are addressing the metadata workflow?

There are lots of tools i know of the help facilitate the process described but having direct communication with the camera really brings it to a whole new level. I particularly like the idea of having thumbnails or even very low res proxy footage attached to the notes.

And even beyond the script supervision and digital slate benefit of wireless communication, you could also control the interface (menus, options, etc) of the camera it self. To me this would be a huge boon in productivity.

If RED provided an application (maybe REDCINE could do this) that facilitated basic wireless communication to the camera, 3rd party developers could come along and create robust workflow management tools.

And last but not least... who likes looking at those tiny lil viewfinder or LCD screens (even in all of REDs 720P glory) ? Id much prefer to control via a powerbook when im on the go or a nice big 23 or 30 inch screen while in the studio.

I dont think we will get any wireless protocols in REDONE which I feel is a bit unfortunate. Maybe they will surprise us but Jim and team have been very open with everything else so I wouldnt put any money on it.
 
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Here I am wallowing about the ill prospects of wireless and I then i come across a quote from Stuart English in another thread:

:So what do you get for $17,500?
Included:

Camera Body with P/L lens mount
Mysterium Sensor and electronics (hey someone asked!)
Flip out hi res LCD (not a VF)
Dual link HD-SDI
HDMI / DVI monitoring / Electronic Viewfinder output
XLR audio
Dual SD card slots (plug a 802.11 wireless transceiver in one if you wish)
USB communication port
Battery and Charger
Click to expand...

Plug a 802.11 wireless transceiver in one if you wish huh? Interesting.
 
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