F3: Maximum F3

James0b57 said:
As much as I love the older cameras, it is always hard to go back. Even to a f35. All the new cameras are so flexible with either size or low light.

I probably hate on new cameras more than anyone here, but every time I look back at footage shot on old cameras, I am reminded by the progress being made.
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Really? So you look at footage from the 8 years old Alexa or 9 years old F35 compared to the Canons, Varicam, F55 and F65 and see progress being made? What it makes me do when I look at footage from the 8 years old Alexa or 9 years old F35 is to ask why the heck they still look better than all the cameras today. It makes me ask why haven't we really progressed.

When you talked about the new cameras being so flexible with either size or low light you were making sense. When you switched to the footage you too me to the twilight zone and wtf land.
 
Ben_Ericson said:
For me, it was the Sony FS700 color and noise. I film a lot of sports stuff, mostly skateboarding. That camera is really popular with those guys but the color has always looked off to me. The ergonomics of the FS700 were also very poor in my opinion. 4K/120 is really nice, but I find the F3 image so beautiful.

The FS700r/4k ready is cheap right now though.
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The way I see it is the images are not different enough to justify the F3 lack of features compared to the FS700. Both look like video anyway. But the FS700 is more flexible and offers more. The ergonomics of the F3 is just as bad. You need to rig both of them to death to make them work anyway. When the FS700 was still much more money I could see a case for the F3. Not anymore though. I have no regrets selling the F3.
 
Sttratos said:
The way I see it is the images are not different enough to justify the F3 lack of features compared to the FS700. Both look like video anyway. But the FS700 is more flexible and offers more. The ergonomics of the F3 is just as bad. You need to rig both of them to death to make them work anyway. When the FS700 was still much more money I could see a case for the F3. Not anymore though. I have no regrets selling the F3.
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Did you ever shoot 4:4:4 from the F3? I still think that for 1080p the F3 makes a nicer image than any of the FS models - and not that 'video' a feel.

I still remember when one of the companies I shot for decided to sell their F3 and buy two FS700's. Just trying to do any critical operating on action and pulling focus with the significant lag in the outputs made it a nightmare immediately. There was so much lag in the FS700 outputs that you couldn't shoot speaker support (IMAG) with them -- the projection screens would be out of sync with the live event. When shooting with the FS700'x we used to make sure client monitors were in a different room, and that the audio was fed through the camera, not direct from the sound person (where audio would have been 4-6 frames in advance of picture). From an operator perspective I guess I always just found the F3 significantly better than the FS700.
 
Sttratos said:
Grug, what was your rationale to get a F3 over a FS700? I think they look very similar but the FS700 gives you HFR and also 4K if you really need. You must rig both of them out with EVFs etc and use a 7Q anyway. Was the F3 still much cheaper when yo got it or you are just a F3 fan? I sold my F3 when I sold the FS7.
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I find the highlights significantly better on the F3, and having 10-bit 4:4:4 output is more useful to me than a somewhat compromised 12-bit raw from the FS700. But mostly it just comes down to build quality and ergonomics for me - a body armoured F3 can work on my sets, an FS700 with a cage partially wrapped around it, and extra supports to hold a PL mount in place is just too much complication for my tastes.

Also, as painful as the F3's menus are, I find it a dream operationally when compared to the FS700, which is one of the most awkward cameras I've ever had to work with (I find the operation of the FS5 similarly painful). 'Simple' is one my most important characteristics when it comes to cameras (it's why I prefer the Arris).

Timecode input, multiple SDI outputs etc. also make a big difference. I can't shoot without those things.
 
Grug, doesn't the audio output get removed when using the full element body armor? What does your sound recordist do for this, just separate audio timecode synced i would guess. I just use Movcam and Berkey, accessories for the F3 (some Vocas and Shape) I did like the look of the Element Body Armor, but still like to feed audio to the F3 and have a return. Most of the time I'm recording to the Odyssey 7Q+ and always record to the SXS cards internal for back up. The F3's became so cheap to buy used ( in good condition) after buying my first one, I bought two more. Another camera I bought that I like as much as the F3, is the Canon C500, paired with the 7Q+ it's amazing.
 
Sttratos said:
Really? So you look at footage from the 8 years old Alexa or 9 years old F35 compared to the Canons, Varicam, F55 and F65 and see progress being made? What it makes me do when I look at footage from the 8 years old Alexa or 9 years old F35 is to ask why the heck they still look better than all the cameras today. It makes me ask why haven't we really progressed.

When you talked about the new cameras being so flexible with either size or low light you were making sense. When you switched to the footage you too me to the twilight zone and wtf land.
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When I look at the footage from current cameras I always notice the same things.

4k/6k/8k capture shows every flaw in the complexion of the talents face or the makeup they had to slather on in an attempt to cover up any problems. Older actors also don't age well under such high resolution scrutiny.
Same for costumes, sets, props etc. Nowadays everything has to be built to a much higher and expensive standard to hold up. Hence the popularity of vintage glass, diffusion filters and post softening.

Second I am amazed that 8 years after the introduction of the Alexa no other company has been able to make a sensor that handles highlights and overexposure as well. That said I think the F65 is close in this respect, but overall I feel the image is not as organic as the Arri.

I miss CCD sensors. I really liked the picture out of the Sony F35.
 
Sttratos said:
The way I see it is the images are not different enough to justify the F3 lack of features compared to the FS700. Both look like video anyway. But the FS700 is more flexible and offers more. The ergonomics of the F3 is just as bad. You need to rig both of them to death to make them work anyway. When the FS700 was still much more money I could see a case for the F3. Not anymore though. I have no regrets selling the F3.
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I disagree. I have used both extensively and the F3 color/skin tone/highlights/lack of noise is really a win. To me it looks much better than the FS7 or FS5 as well. The Fs700/FS5/FS7 all look like video to me. Also, I agree with Grug. The FS700 has some of the worst ergonomics I have ever used.

Did you shoot S-LOG/Pro Res? Like I posted earlier, I just have a small black magic recorder on top. The viewfinder is actually usable on the F3 as well.
 
B.Berry said:
Grug, doesn't the audio output get removed when using the full element body armor? What does your sound recordist do for this, just separate audio timecode synced i would guess. I just use Movcam and Berkey, accessories for the F3 (some Vocas and Shape) I did like the look of the Element Body Armor, but still like to feed audio to the F3 and have a return. Most of the time I'm recording to the Odyssey 7Q+ and always record to the SXS cards internal for back up. The F3's became so cheap to buy used ( in good condition) after buying my first one, I bought two more. Another camera I bought that I like as much as the F3, is the Canon C500, paired with the 7Q+ it's amazing.
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Well I've literally never recorded internally to an F3, so I've never had an issue with audio output from the camera body, I just plug the mics into the XLRs and a headphone jack into the external recorder to listen to it.

Most of the time, my soundie will hook up two boxes to the camera, a wireless receiver (to feed a scratch track into the camera, and a lock-it box (or similar) for timecode.
 
Ben_Ericson said:
Really wish this setup did 60p/4k. It still only does raw, correct? I love the images from that camera.
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The Odyssey 7Q+ can convert the C500's 4K RAW 60p to ProRes 422HQ, 422, 422LT, but 60p is the cap for ProRes.
 
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Grug said:
Well I've literally never recorded internally to an F3, so I've never had an issue with audio output from the camera body, I just plug the mics into the XLRs and a headphone jack into the external recorder to listen to it.

Most of the time, my soundie will hook up two boxes to the camera, a wireless receiver (to feed a scratch track into the camera, and a lock-it box (or similar) for timecode.
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I guess if I ever put the Element Armor on an F3, with the Odyssey 7Q+ I could use the Odyssey's headphone output.
 
Grug said:
This will hopefully give you a better idea of the setup:

- I mount everything with either 15mm rods and spigots, or velcro (for things like timecode boxes or wireless audio receivers). My AC preferred using his magic arm for the Odyssey, so he switched that in.

- I use a Berkey Systems top handle, which is brilliant because it has 15mm mounting points both front and back, as well as on the riser (that one holds the Gratical).

- Teradek is mounted off the back via a 15mm spigot (nice and neat), and the range finder we simply put on one of the mini ball head things I keep in my odds and sods box.

- Timecode was via Tentacle sync. It's nice and neat, we'd had it on the last feature I shot, and it seemed to work well both then and now.
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Thanks for all that and the photo showing attachments to the Gratical.
 
30p is the maximum for ProRes.

4K/60p is recorded in Canon RAW, which you'll have to convert yourself.

If the C500 shot 4K/60p ProRes (via 7Q+) it would still be selling today.
 
NorBro said:
30p is the maximum for ProRes.

4K/60p is recorded in Canon RAW, which you'll have to convert yourself.

If the C500 shot 4K/60p ProRes (via 7Q+) it would still be selling today.
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That's what I thought. I think it would be smart to just pay the extra $$$ and get the auto focus, added dynamic range, and take away the need for an external recorder.

So does one get Pro Res 60p from a Canon camera? :/
 
No internal 4K/60p ProRes for almost any camera ever made.

Blackmagic is the only one who has pretty much dominated the ProRes world in all of their cameras. The original URSA was amazing...now it can be found on eBay for $2K, ha.

C700 for a cool $28K shoots 4K/30p ProRes internally (anything above in 4K turns into XF-AVC).

C200 has 4K/60p 10-bit Cinema RAW Light that can be converted (like the C500) and 1DX Mark II has it via 8-bit MJPEG.
 
Harry Lime said:
I got a pretty good deal on it. They are out there for well under $20k. You just need to look until you find one that wasn't in a rental house for the past 6-7 years and is coming form a reputable source.
I'm guessing we will see serious drop in price if Arri shows something new at IBC and people start to sell off to upgrade.

Basically the choice was a new used car or the Alexa. Well, my car still runs and I didn't have an Alexa...
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Yeah I have been seeing Arri Alexa Classics on eBay for as little as US$8K-ish!

Seems there was nothing new from Arri at IBC, maybe NAB 2018 is when the next iteration will happen? And then we'll see prices drop off a cliff.
 
I love seeing the F3 being used, it's a shame mine just sits and collects dust. Really is a great camera and I've debated on selling mine but for the price they are going for now it doesn't make sense. Mostly working with the FS700 and odyssey Combo right now just because the fs700 is smaller and everything fits into a pelican 1510 but I always did enjoy the F3 (and it comes out when we need a two camera shoot that isn't using an A7R II because we have crew members).

If only the thing had the high speed that the FS700 had, then it would be my main camera. Still my recommendation for when people ask what camera they should buy for video. Wish they still made the ET armor for it though.
 
I love being able to use my F3 when it fits the bill. I like the FS700 but only when shooting 4K raw to the odyssey. The image when using the F3 and the odyssey recording S Log 444 RGB is really so nice! and the weight isn't that much different than the FS700 rig. I still like the F3 better than the FS700 when both are outputting the best image they can to the Odyssey 7Q+.
 
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