Matching HMC-150 footage with Sony EX-1

I

ikander

Well-known member
Hey All,

I'm gearing up to shoot a short movie (around 20 minutes) in about a month or so. A friend of mine has an EX-1 and he has offered to shoot for me.

I have an HMC-150. Now, I know that the EX 1 is a better camera (as the price indicates), but is it possible to still use my HMC-150 as a B-CAM or for b-roll/cutaway shots?

Anybody have a good scene file setting that I can make the HMC-150 match the EX1?

Thanks!
 
I did some quick test matching a HMC150 with a Sony EX3 -- similar to the EX1 -- and ended up with these settings:

Vdetail = -4
Detail = 0
Hue = -1
Sat = +1
Mst Ped Black = +8

The Sony is certainly sharper, and still held more detail in the blacks and shadows, but they looked awfully close after that.

This was done in the studio, but we haven't actually shot at the same time with both cameras yet. I suspect, though, that you'll be able to intercut them pretty well.
 
Awesome! You rock!

Would you suggest shooting both cameras in 720 rather than 1080?

I know that the HMC's sweet spot is 720, so I'm thinking that 1080 might not be the best idea...
 
ikander said:
Would you suggest shooting both cameras in 720 rather than 1080?

I know that the HMC's sweet spot is 720, so I'm thinking that 1080 might not be the best idea...
Click to expand...

I know on paper 720p is the "sweet spot", but to my eye, I really can't tell the difference.
 
dsmpls said:
I did some quick test matching a HMC150 with a Sony EX3 -- similar to the EX1 -- and ended up with these settings:

Vdetail = -4
Detail = 0
Hue = -1
Sat = +1
Mst Ped Black = +8

The Sony is certainly sharper, and still held more detail in the blacks and shadows, but they looked awfully close after that.

This was done in the studio, but we haven't actually shot at the same time with both cameras yet. I suspect, though, that you'll be able to intercut them pretty well.
Click to expand...

i'm really surprised by the vdetail/detail settings....if the EX1/3 is sharper, then how is it possible that decreasing vertical detail and not increasing detail at all results in a comparably sharp image??

and mstr ped increase would appear even softer. what settings were you using on the EX3?
 
averan said:
i'm really surprised by the vdetail/detail settings....if the EX1/3 is sharper, then how is it possible that decreasing vertical detail and not increasing detail at all results in a comparably sharp image??

and mstr ped increase would appear even softer. what settings were you using on the EX3?
Click to expand...

The Vdetail and detail adjustments on the HMC-150 have limited effect on the picture even at either extreme -7-0-7 of the settings. There is absolutely no way to tell a picture difference in a change of 1 to 3 numbers. Maybe at 4.

The master pedestal won't affect the sharpness at all. It's the starting point of the gamma curve.

Decrease the coring to decrease the noise reduction and get a sharper appearing picture.

IMO, and with a 40" or larger calibrated HDTV/monitor, you need to adjust all these parameters for the best image quality. The HMC-150 produces a stunning picture when tweaked to your liking.

The EX-1 will be much sharper, so I would use it for the wider shots where increased sharpness really is noticable and pays off. Tighter shots appear sharper anyway, so use the HMC-150 there.

MP test with the DVX
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/MP/
 
Last edited:
based on the panasonic scene file handbook (page 20), decreasing master ped increases contrast, resulting in sharper images. gamma affects contrast affects perceived sharpness. after reading the manual, i understand now how these settings are all inter-related and affect our perception of sharpness.

and i'd have to disagree on your comment that a few degrees of change in detail aren't noticeable....i've done a lot of testing of this myself and i can see a difference between 0, +3,+4 and +7. imo, anything > +3 results in too much artificial edge outline/contrast.

but to be sure, the changes in detail/vdetail seem more subtle compared to changes in vcoring.

good suggestion there on using the hmc for tighter shots...probably best way to match cameras considering strengths/weaknesses.
 
jeff9329 said:
The EX-1 will be much sharper, so I would use it for the wider shots where increased sharpness really is noticable and pays off. Tighter shots appear sharper anyway, so use the HMC-150 there.
Click to expand...


I would also suggest the above.


As for 720 being the "sweet spot"?
I think 1080p is the sweet spot, as you have so much more to work with.
In my testing, 1080 is the sweet spot if you can edit it.
 
ikander said:
Now I think I've got to go out and shoot in 1080 just to test it out...

Thanks, folks.
Click to expand...

Really, 720p on paper is better, but in real world stuff I've not seen a difference. Plus I'd rather have the higher resolution, even if it's marginally more compressed, of 1080p. Like Hornet said, if you can edit it, go with that.
 
Mike Harvey said:
Really, 720p on paper is better, but in real world stuff I've not seen a difference. Plus I'd rather have the higher resolution, even if it's marginally more compressed, of 1080p. Like Hornet said, if you can edit it, go with that.
Click to expand...

It's not processing power I'm woried about it's file size...since I cut with FCP, I have to transcode the footage first. How much larger is 1080 vs. 720?
 
ikander said:
It's not processing power I'm woried about it's file size...since I cut with FCP, I have to transcode the footage first. How much larger is 1080 vs. 720?
Click to expand...

The files will be the same physical size since they are captured at the same bit rate, 24 MBPS max.

The 1080 is just more compressed. But technically, 1080 has more color information than 720.

I agree with Mike & Green to go with 1080P. I couldn't really tell much if any difference between 720P30 and 1080P30 after shooting a few projects both ways. I suggest you do a couple projects both ways as long as your NLE cooperates.

I started out with 1080i to match my XH-A1. Ehhh...interlacing and seemed slower to edit. Only plus side is the 150 does DRS & digital zoom in 1080i.

Next shot 720P30 to match my JVC camera and I heard it was good due to lower compression. Looked good.

Currently shooting 1080P30 because of the additional color info and possible resolution increase. Looks good and Im sticking here for now.
 
The files will be the same physical size since they are captured at the same bit rate, 24 MBPS max.
Click to expand...
The file size will be different from 1080 vs 720 once transcoded in FCP... even the frame rate makes a difference..
I know someone posted "frame size" & "frame rate" file size comparison here, i just can't find it!
 
Without knowing a thing about ProRes or FCP... I would think that since there are 20% more frames at 30fps than there are at 24fps, the file size would be 20% bigger as there is now 20% more information to deal with.
 
ProRes 422 uses different bitrates for different resolutions and sizes. It also uses
variable bit rate encoding, so these are theoretical maximums:

720p/24 - 66 Mbps - 8.25 MB/sec - 0.495 GB/min
720p/30 - 84 Mbps - 8.25 MB/sec - 0.615 GB/min
720p/60 - 166 Mbps - 20.75 MB/sec - 1.22 GB/min
1080p/24 - 132 Mbps - 16.5 MB/sec - 0.967 GB/min
1080p/30 - 166 Mbps - 20.75 MB/sec - 1.22 GB/min
Click to expand...

I found this info on another thread... I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it seems about right
That's at ProRes 422, you also could use AIC witch is about 60% of those numbers
 
Superfresa66 said:
I found this info on another thread... I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it seems about right
That's at ProRes 422, you also could use AIC witch is about 60% of those numbers
Click to expand...

That's actually really helpful...thanks.

I shot some 60p stuff this weekend and those sizes are more or less similar to what I got.
 
How much will you use each camera?

I have had better luck changing the EX-1 to match the HMC-150 as the EX-1 has way more controls than the HMC-150.

Point them both at a well lit MacBeth chart, setup the HMC-150 how you like it then go to town on the EX-1.
 
Bassman2003 said:
How much will you use each camera?

I have had better luck changing the EX-1 to match the HMC-150 as the EX-1 has way more controls than the HMC-150.

Point them both at a well lit MacBeth chart, setup the HMC-150 how you like it then go to town on the EX-1.
Click to expand...

The goal is to use the EX1 as the primary cam. I just figured since I have the HMC-150, it would be nice to have two Cams rolling. Plus, I could use the HMC almost as a second unit and have other picking up B-roll shots and exteriors.

I guess the best way to do this is literally just practice shooting with both Cameras to see the results.
 
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