Magic Lantern T2i 550d Vs GH2 Which Is The Best Overall Camera Right Now And Why ?

[Ian-T]

I thought it was 1.85x crop on the GH-X's? <<well....I guess when you round it off....yeah...1.9x.

It's funny when I keep hearing the same argument about the GH-X's crop factor... Sometimes folks are just mis-informed and they run with it.

So...by your calculations above it should really read Canon's 1.8x vs GH-X's 1.85x crop. How much more rediculously close can two cameras be for folks to understand....the video size between the two is negligible?

 

[brunerww]

...for now, it seems kind of like BetaMax- it was "better" than VHS, but no one cared. (bad analogy and a low blow, nothing personal to GH2 users, power to you! Just saying in the future, people will likely look back and remember what Canon did, not Panasonic).

Oh yeah, and also:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?241415-Magic-Lantern-Canon-550D-VS-Panasonic-GH2

That thread isn't so old that we really needed to rehash this.

Thanks, Dishe -- yes, I participated in that thread. Very interesting.

As a person who has owned both the T2i and the GH2, my logic in selling the T2i went something like this: one of these two cameras produces nearly moire-free images and has no recording time limit. The other is more popular.

The choice for me was simple.

I am not a Canon-basher. I loved my T2i. But I couldn't live with the limitations of DIGIC 4. Since you used an analogy -- there are lots of Chevys and Fords on the road -- you can find a mechanic on every corner and the parts are cheaper -- but that doesn't mean that a mass-market car is the best choice for everyone ;-)

Cheers,

Bill

 

[M. Gilden]

I thought it was 1.85x crop on the GH-X's? <<well....I guess when you round it off....yeah...1.9x.

It's funny when I keep hearing the same argument about the GH-X's crop factor... Sometimes folks are just mis-informed and they run with it.

So...by your calculations above it should really read Canon's 1.8x vs GH-X's 1.85x crop. How much more rediculously close can two cameras be for folks to understand....the video size between the two is negligible?

Um- pretty sure you're misinformed about Canon's crop size- the 7D/T2-3i/60D are claimed to have a 1.6x crop (NOT 1.8) which is technically rounded up from 1.5811899, and mostly identical in size to APS film. The GH series is actually about 20% smaller, which is quite noticeable when compared side by side.

I'm not knocking the GH2, but there IS a difference.

Thanks, Dishe -- yes, I participated in that thread. Very interesting.

As a person who has owned both the T2i and the GH2, my logic in selling the T2i went something like this: one of these two cameras produces nearly moire-free images and has no recording time limit. The other is more popular.

The choice for me was simple.

I am not a Canon-basher. I loved my T2i. But I couldn't live with the limitations of DIGIC 4. Since you used an analogy -- there are lots of Chevys and Fords on the road -- you can find a mechanic on every corner and the parts are cheaper -- but that doesn't mean that a mass-market car is the best choice for everyone ;-)

Cheers,

Bill

Agreed.
And I'm usually in that position- when it comes to cell phones, cars, computers, I don't normally choose the "mass market" device, but rather pick the one that suites MY needs specifically. However, not having any previous DSLR experience (coming from a strictly digital videography world), I wanted a camera with enough community following to learn from, hack, tweak, follow tutorials, etc... I couldn't afford to me out in the cold with this.
Now that I am more familiar with the concepts and understand how it is supposed to work, etc, I might consider another option. I still prefer some of the features that Magic Lantern offers (specifically the ability to plug in monitoring headphones, and actually record usable audio in camera), as well as more native lenses available (Love the autofocus on my Tamron F/2.8 zoom). Having a larger sensor is helpful as well when I'm NOT using native lenses, as the more zoomed-in you get with some vintage glass, the more sharpness you lose, and combined with a standard-sized mic jack input, I still think I'm better off with the mass market camera for now.

But yes, there are very valid reasons to go either way on this.

 

[dxl]

i sold my t2i with ML(great higher bitrate feature!) for a T3i because i was like... i wouldn't missed so many good shoots just because i didnt have space or it needed to be higher or lower. and my external monitor is a bit heavy for weddings on a steadycam. only use when shoot music video or my own stuff. as its too much trouble to bring along. so i went to store and check out the t3i.

what most people dont know about the secondary main difference that sold the t3i to me at the time is
the new 18-55IS II, the stabilization is quite a bit better and zoom ring is much smoother for video than last version. (one small minus is the focus ring is a bit louder)
the 18-55IS II and 18-135IS on 60D and T3i body have the effect of continuous aperture ring (like the GH2 14-140) instead of stepping you get from other non constant F4 or F2.8 zooms. you can set F5.6 to get smooth zoom in and out.
however, the two same lens put on t2i and 7d still have the aperture stepping effect.
oh and you can really hold the camera steadier than t2i due to the grip design!!

i bought a GH2 three months ago but haven't really use it in any of my productions due to lack of testing and its the only GH camera i have, didnt know how to mix the footages with two other t2i and one 5D mk2. and i only had 14-140 which is a slow lens. the photo quality and color is not even close to 5d.

anyhow i did couple tests this week. tried to mix t3i with gh2... on my... t3i look like out of focused beside the true 1080p look of gh2... but i still like the canon color much better.
after more testing. i decide to return the t3i as its just not sharp enough and low light is just ok and without kilven temp setting its very hard to match color with gh2 in many conditions.
i bought a canon to m43 adapter with variable aperture ring, i love it! put on my sigma 20 1.8 as normal prime and 50 1.4 as long prime is like having a iris control on most video cams!
some people complain about the video look, one can reduce it with gaussian blur and luma curve. however, due to larger sensor of t2i the boken still look better and smoother (may due to softer resolution?)

with gh2 the blue chennal is much noiser than green and red but not a big deal. since the resolution is there, a bit of noise reduction softening is okay and might even add that film look some are looking for.

anyway t2i color look smoother or more film like without any processing. but with gh2 u need to know what you are doing.

the Canon have overall better dynamic range but gh2 with decent light and up to 1025 ISO process with luma cuve can look very very similar.

if u can only have one with a limited budget and u want to get that movie look. get a used T2i or new t3i with kit lens and simga 30 and 50 1.4 prime (simga boken look smoother than canon 50 1.4, the canon 28 1.8 boken look horrible) for smooth boken
make sure you sharpen the video at post,(from my experience canon with sharpness set at "0" in premier pro cs5 sharpen to at max of 33 before looking artificial. with in camera sharpness set a "1", premier pro cs5 sharpen to at max of 23 before looking artificial

 

[Aaron De Pry]

Um- pretty sure you're misinformed about Canon's crop size- the 7D/T2-3i/60D are claimed to have a 1.6x crop (NOT 1.8) which is technically rounded up from 1.5811899, and mostly identical in size to APS film. The GH series is actually about 20% smaller, which is quite noticeable when compared side by side.

I'm not knocking the GH2, but there IS a difference.



Agreed.
And I'm usually in that position- when it comes to cell phones, cars, computers, I don't normally choose the "mass market" device, but rather pick the one that suites MY needs specifically. However, not having any previous DSLR experience (coming from a strictly digital videography world), I wanted a camera with enough community following to learn from, hack, tweak, follow tutorials, etc... I couldn't afford to me out in the cold with this.
Now that I am more familiar with the concepts and understand how it is supposed to work, etc, I might consider another option. I still prefer some of the features that Magic Lantern offers (specifically the ability to plug in monitoring headphones, and actually record usable audio in camera), as well as more native lenses available (Love the autofocus on my Tamron F/2.8 zoom). Having a larger sensor is helpful as well when I'm NOT using native lenses, as the more zoomed-in you get with some vintage glass, the more sharpness you lose, and combined with a standard-sized mic jack input, I still think I'm better off with the mass market camera for now.

But yes, there are very valid reasons to go either way on this.

What Ian was saying is that the canon's sensors are not native 16:9 they actually shave the top and bottom of the image to make it 16:9. it is a 1.6x crop on its native sensor size. The gh2 has a multi-aspect ratio sensor so it is wider to accommodate 16:9 without having to shave pixels. Whether or not shaving pixels affects the crop factor is beyond me. Looking through the cameras using the same glass I can tell you that the difference is negligible and as far as I am concerned a moot point. Also it is worth pointing out that there are hacks available for both the t2i and the gh1 (supposedly the gh2 is soon to follow). Hacks, while adding extra feature also mess with the reliability of the camera. I would not recommend using them. My t2i overheats a lot faster when using a high bit rate and my gh1 has reliability issue under a high bit rate as well.

The gh2 is a good multipurpose camera, with out a doubt the most versatile VDSLR camera on the market today. But the GH2 is also the first gen 2 VDSLR so it is exactly what I would expect from a camera like that. The Canon's have really only had superficial changes since the 7d as far as sensors and image processors go. That being said Canon has teamed up with Technicolor recently and I get the feeling that it is the precursor to the release of something pretty cool.

So if it were up to me I would choose the GH2 for the time being. Having a clean image out of the camera trumps everything. In a few months, who knows? I got my fingers crossed for a 5d MkIII.

 

[M. Gilden]

What Ian was saying is that the canon's sensors are not native 16:9 they actually shave the top and bottom of the image to make it 16:9. it is a 1.6x crop on its native sensor size. The gh2 has a multi-aspect ratio sensor so it is wider to accommodate 16:9 without having to shave pixels. Whether or not shaving pixels affects the crop factor is beyond me.

::scratches head::
"Multi-aspect ratio sensor"? I'm not sure I understand how that works... I'm familiar with the technical aspects of a sensor, and as far as I know, pixels are pixels. The size of the sensor does not change, however which pixels are being recorded from can be arranged in different shapes. That being said, both cameras actually record from an array of pixels to suit the size and aspect of the video frame. Yes, that means some of the pixels are left out on the Canon (after all, it IS an 18mpix array of pixels, clearly you are skipping a whole lot of them when recording 1080p video). I don't understand why the GH2's sensor would work any differently in that regard? It also has to ignore most of the sensor's pixels in order to get the right resolution and aspect ratio, doesn't it?

Perhaps I'm just not familiar with how Panasonic's works. If you've got more info on this, I'd love to hear it as this subject is very interesting to me.

Also it is worth pointing out that there are hacks available for both the t2i and the gh1 (supposedly the gh2 is soon to follow). Hacks, while adding extra feature also mess with the reliability of the camera. I would not recommend using them. My t2i overheats a lot faster when using a high bit rate and my gh1 has reliability issue under a high bit rate as well.

The GH series does NOT have the suite of tools that is Magic Lantern (focus assist tools, advanced audio management and monitoring, overlays etc). I wish it did. While there are little hacks here and there to change certain things, it is NOT the polished behemoth that is ML.
And that all goes back to the whole community thing. The more people using it, the more brains behind the hacks, and the more polished and stable it will be. A quick quip from the world of mobile phones: a custom ROM for the HTC EVO, for example, will be far more stable and totally usable because of the amount of people using/developing/testing on it, than a custom ROM for a less popular phone, like say the Samsung Moment. There just aren't as many people who care about it passionately enough to push and test and come up with solutions.

Meanwhile, I disagree completely with the stability claims you make about Magic Lantern. I use ML on paying gigs with my job on the line all the time. Because ML actually runs on TOP of the camera's firmware, the camera still works as it should in the background, and only makes minor changes to how it works (mostly overlay type things), and has very little effect on the stability of the camera, if any at all!
I recorded over an hour of stand-up comedy the other night, and never had a single overheat warning or unexpected thing happen. So, I'm not sure why you are saying yours heated up. Maybe you had a lemon of a camera?

Having a clean image out of the camera trumps everything.

That's subjective. If we all had such problems with the image out of the canon's, the community wouldn't be as strong behind it. Yes, it sometimes proves to be a problem. But it honestly hasn't been that big of a problem for me. The added features of ML plus the plethora of accessories and things available trumps the few times my image would have been better on a different camera, IMO.

To each their own, they are both wonderful tools.

 

[Ian-T]

dishe.... if you had a square and you wanted to make a rectangle out of it...what would you do? You'd shave the top and bottom off to make that rectangle. If that native square (4:3 before you shaved it) was considered a 1.6x crop....then wouldn't the new rectangle you made out of it be even greater than 1.6? If yes...then wouldn't the 1.6x crop factor of the 7D/T2i be only for stills...AND the NEW crop factor for video (to make that 16:9 image) be around 1.8x's? With that said you really need to google info on the GH-X's sensor. It's not a typical M4/3s sensor. It's oversized. It does not crop to get it's 16:9 image. So...since it does not crop....and it's oversized...it's crop factor is sitting around 1.85x's. Let's see...1.8x vs 1.85x (or 1.9 if you round it off) is NOT that much of a difference. I once owned a 7D... trust me... it's not that big of a difference.


Why are we talking about this again? I forgot.

 

[Cenisland]

Hello,

Oh boy..after the last guy got roasted I was not sure I wanted to ask this question..lol. Ok here goes. I own a Canon XL-2 and primarily shoot video. I have the opportunity to get the T2i for $511 with the 18-55mm lens through the loyalty program. The 60D is going for $1039 refurbished with the 18-135mm lens. The 7D body for $1087 through the loyalty program but they are out of stock now. This is my first dive into the DSLR marker for video. I am looking for quick advice on which route to take now, T2i or 60D?

 

[M. Gilden]

Hello,

Oh boy..after the last guy got roasted I was not sure I wanted to ask this question..lol. Ok here goes. I own a Canon XL-2 and primarily shoot video. I have the opportunity to get the T2i for $511 with the 18-55mm lens through the loyalty program. The 60D is going for $1039 refurbished with the 18-135mm lens. The 7D body for $1087 through the loyalty program but they are out of stock now. This is my first dive into the DSLR marker for video. I am looking for quick advice on which route to take now, T2i or 60D?

For the money, I say T2i. There isn't really anything the 60D can do better, aside from the articulating screen. Sure, the 60D has better build quality, but in all honesty, these camera bodies are to be considered an eventually disposable tool. New models always come out and the current ones depreciate exponentially rather quickly. Get the cheapest option that does what you need it to when starting out, then you'll be in a better position when the next model comes out.

And no, I din't get roasted- LOL, these guys were teching me about something I didn't know (GH2's sensor is an anomoly and improperly marketed as a micro 4/3rds size, apparently). I did not know that, and assumed all cameras made for stills that took video had to crop the top and bottom pixels. Turns out the GH does not.

 

[Cenisland]

lol...hey...appreciate the advice. Will I miss anything by not getting the 60D with the 18-135mm lens off the bat? It's pretty expensive by itself and pretty much makes up the point to price difference in the scenario I outlined above. The articulating screen is pretty nice but I am not too sold on it. Where there is a will there is a way.

 

[a1ex]

Yes, that means some of the pixels are left out on the Canon (after all, it IS an 18mpix array of pixels, clearly you are skipping a whole lot of them when recording 1080p video). I don't understand why the GH2's sensor would work any differently in that regard? It also has to ignore most of the sensor's pixels in order to get the right resolution and aspect ratio, doesn't it?

Some signal processing theory helps here. Canon skips a lot of pixels, which causes aliasing and moire. Panasonic averages the pixels, which reduces aliasing and moire (so it's not noticeable in practice) and furthermore it has better ISO performance in video mode (standard deviation of noise decreases by averaging pixels).

See this discussion: http://vimeo.com/groups/magiclantern/forumthread:239739
You will find some quick resizing tests which show the difference between pixel binning (with averaging) and pixel skipping, and also the effect of an AA filter when only pixel skipping is used.

 

[deltoidjohn]

Um- pretty sure you're misinformed about Canon's crop size- the 7D/T2-3i/60D are claimed to have a 1.6x crop (NOT 1.8) which is technically rounded up from 1.5811899, and mostly identical in size to APS film. The GH series is actually about 20% smaller, which is quite noticeable when compared side by side.

In stills mode, the crop factor is a big difference. In video mode, it becomes much less apparent.

The GH2 (and GH1) has an oversized sensor so that it can use maximum possible amount of the imaging circle in any given aspect ratio. The full sensor is not used in any ratio, but the full imaging circle is. The 16:9 image from the GH2 is wider than the 3:2 still images.

The Canons, however, simply cut off the top and bottom of the sensor to achieve 16:9. This further crop means it has a higher crop factor in video mode than the 1.6 crop factor of the full, native 3:2 sensor.

This has previously been discussed in length and the conlusion reached was basically that in video mode the difference is negligable.

 

[Cenisland]

For the money, I say T2i. There isn't really anything the 60D can do better, aside from the articulating screen. Sure, the 60D has better build quality, but in all honesty, these camera bodies are to be considered an eventually disposable tool. New models always come out and the current ones depreciate exponentially rather quickly. Get the cheapest option that does what you need it to when starting out, then you'll be in a better position when the next model comes out.

And no, I din't get roasted- LOL, these guys were teching me about something I didn't know (GH2's sensor is an anomoly and improperly marketed as a micro 4/3rds size, apparently). I did not know that, and assumed all cameras made for stills that took video had to crop the top and bottom pixels. Turns out the GH does not.

Hey there...here is an update. I actually bought the T2i Body was planning on getting a prime lens (sigma or nikon) and an EOS adapter for the Nikkor 55mm-200mm lens I have. Well, Canon didn't charge my card properly and ended up placing two holds on my account. They canceled the order and said call them tomorrow. I get home and go on their site and this is what I see...lol

Canon 7D Body - $1087 through loyalty Program
Canon T2i Body - $448 through loyalty Program
Canon T2i , 18-55mm - $511 through loyalty Program
Canon 60D body - $799
Canon 60D, 18 - 185mm - $1039

All the REFURBS are back in stock...now I am thinking again...

 

[-Sandro-]

I own a t2i. I can tell you that the only reason I didn't buy the GH1 (to be hacked) at the time it's because I didn't even know it existed or that the canon's video was so poor and everytime I see hacked Gh1/GH2 footage I "cry". The video resolution of the Canons (5d included) is ridiculous, its not only a problem of the moiré. The 1080p video you get is NEAR a real 720p file, for me it's a big concern...being a details freak . Furthermore if Canon doesn't fix any of the problems in video mode for the upcoming new cameras with the new DIGIC V processor while they HAD ALL THE TIME to analyze the market and re-invent their systems I'll be done for good with Canon for video. I'll switch to Panasonic or some other company..Sony is really making a good job with the Sony E-Mount cameras.
If they do fix the problems it'll be just perfect. I can use my Nikon lenses, I can keep my Canon lenses, I have a Super-35mm ish size (not like Panasonic's that has a smaller sensor), i'll have more light sensitivity/less noise/more dynamic range than Panasonic (supposing a new sensor for Canon).
Conclusion, I'd go with the GH2 for video at the moment, the reason is because I'm not that sure Canon will ever (want to) fix those video issues for marketing reasons, they also keep using that stupid mega pixels war that could only worsen the situation for downscaling