Macbook or Macbook Pro?

[jazo]

Hello everyone I'm about to purchase an HVX200, that is for sure. I'm a bit up in arms about which notebook I should purchase though.

I plan to use it while shooting so I can record with an NLE. Originally I was set on the Macbook because of its price and seemingly good specs. However when I called Apple to order the Macbook the woman I spoke with informed me that the integrated graphics were not capable of handling Final Cut Pro. Now the only reason that I am purchasing a Mac is because it can boot XP and OSX. I am much more versed in Adobe Premiere but I have a feeling I will still be wanting to use Final Cut Pro.

So then she launched in to how I will probably need the power that the Macbook Pro offers. Needless to say I ended up not making the purchase and now I cannot figure out which is the best choice.

Could anyone who has either a Macbook or Macbook Pro tell me about the experience with them while using an HVX200?

 

[Rasquachemedia]

hmmm.. if memory serves me correct. Curogan used an ibook with the hvx for the Ore:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=53795

so the macbook should work well. its faster. also the macbook will run fcp, but not being marketed as such.

here's a link that discusses the macbook:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=53795

apple sales people are not very well educated on their products, sometimes, and are also trained to gear customers toward specific products, depending on your needs.

but, i would say that if money is not an issue than go with the pro. hope the threads above help

also check out the ore website for, i think they have pics and podcasts that talk about it a bit

 

[Malcolm Wright]

Could anyone who has either a Macbook or Macbook Pro tell me about the experience with them while using an HVX200?

Hey Jazo,

I feel a rant boiling in my veins, so be warned - a lot of what follows may be off topic.

First, I'm almost certain that rep was BS-ing you. Final Cut pro has worked fine with many older generation graphics chipsets. The on board chipset of the Macbook should be fine.

And now I must unleash the rant from the flood gates, lest my brain explode.
I am completely and utterly fed up with Apple's nonsense.
In a nutshell, my experience over the years (and I've had many Apple's starting with an Apple IIc back sometime back during the last Ice Age) has been that with Apple, you pay a significant premium so that you can put up with pretentious packaging and marketing, ignorant reps and tech service people, and far more problems with their machines than you would be expected to tolerate for the price you pay for them.
An ex girlfriend bought one of the dud g3's years ago. She was a free lance graphic designer and the machine was her biggest business investment. It crashed about a dozen times a day, and Apple refused to swap it out for a new one. They just kept taking it back to repair it, and failed each time. This went on for 3 years before I met her.

Now that I have an HVX, I have reluctantly considered getting a Mac again, especially now that you can dual boot to XP.
But something you might find interesting: my ten minute test of FCP showed me it is considerably slower than Edius when it comes to displaying real time, full frame HD - when considering similarly spec-ed machines. In fact my old Dell m60 on which I tried Edius is probably a less powerful machine than the single core g4 mac I tested FCP on.
Also, the decision to migrate to the express cardbus slot (precluding the direct connection of p2 cards) is typical of Apple's thinking. They thought: 'next gen', without considering the thousands of professionals out there who use the old cardbus cards, and released their machines before any old cardbus usb readers were available. In their shoes, I would have developed the usb reader myself so that my clients would have a bridge to using their existing hardware when they upgraded to the dual core macs, but that's just stupid ole me.

Result, I've turned away from getting one of the new macs. Edius has promised for v4 the one feature the absence of which was a deal breaker for me: a pervasive keyframing paradigm. So I'm going to get a dual core pc laptop next time I upgrade, with the old school cardbus (or an external reader already available today), and meanwhile Edius already outperforms FCP on my 3 year old Dell.

I'll save maybe four or five hundred dollars on the laptop upgrade, about the same getting Edius rather than FCP... and I'll still have the no-bullshit service I've come to expect from Dell for the past three years.
Just two months ago, the DVD burner in my laptop died a death, literally the day before I left on an itinerant shoot on which I would need to burn backup dvds of the footage every evening. Under my extended warranty terms, Dell courriered a new drive to the garage I was waiting at for an upgrade the suspension on my landcruiser... 3 hours after my phone call to them.
My old drive was a 4X r+ burner: the replacement they sent me is a 8X r+- ...

And the rant ends here. I apologize. It has been building up in me for months... I had to let it out some time.

Good luck with your gear shopping.

M.

 

[jazo]

Yeah I am reading more and more about them and it seems that there are more unsatisfied people out there then I thought. I just want to get a good solid notebook that will be able to:

a. Run Windows
b. Be powerful enough to run Premiere and whatever the needs of the HVX200 are
c. Have a wide screen display that runs bright and nice

I would like to have OSX simply because I enjoy using Macs and the things that are being offered with these new notebooks are pretty cool. I would not even think about a Mac if it could not run Windows though, because (and I have my reasons believe me) I much prefer it over OSX.

 

[Malcolm Wright]

I hear you... I almost bought one of the new Macs during my last trip to the US: it was just after they had started shipping.
The thing that saved me is that the store was out of stock of every product I considered buying! They didn't have any of the new macs to sell me, and the old one (with the old cardbus slot) that I considered getting was out of stock too.

Sometimes I feel like they do it on purpose, understicking their stores with everything ranging from laptops to ipod accessories so that people get the sense that everything is oh-so-popular that you have to be one of the chosen ones to actually be able to get your hands on it. I just think it is oh-so-lame.

Wow, I still had a bit more of a rant in me after all!

The one thing I would really enjoy in OSX is the command shell. But there are Unix shells you can download for Windows, and I can always dual boot my machine with Linux... so, nah...

Concerning your notebook needs, you'll easily find what you are looking for. I haven't used Premiere in a while, but I don'te ver remember it being particularly demanding.
I have not seen Premiere work with HD so I don't know how it performs. All I can say is that Edius knocked my socks off with its performance with DVCHDpro: if my 3 year old Dell can play 720p without dropping a frame in Edius, there's notelling what todays dual core machines will do

Best to you!
M.

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

Which exact Edius version do you use?

I
I have not seen Premiere work with HD so I don't know how it performs. All I can say is that Edius knocked my socks off with its performance with DVCHDpro: if my 3 year old Dell can play 720p without dropping a frame in Edius, there's notelling what todays dual core machines will do

Best to you!
M.

 

[OliverM]

That G3 probably ran under OS9. That thing always crashed under stress. A lot has improved with OSx. In casu, allmost no crashes at all. And fyi, I work on both mac and pc, the pc's are HP's recomended by avid, the mac's where G5 imacs with FCP. Altough they render slow, the macs never failed me. Those HP's ... That's a different story. Dunno what Apple service is worth. I have a good dealer and he helps me out. I just like the 'touch and feel' of a mac.
To everybody their flavor, but the only computer to come into my house is a mac.

 

[Niels Neeskens]

I have a macbook pro with Final Cut Studio and it works perfect. It is fast and working with the HVX on it is great. I was a windows man who worked on Premiere and Avid, but I am never gonna touch that again beacuse I am in Mac/ FCP heaven and the Macbook Pro is my gate to it!!
I know, maybe it's to much, but it's because I am not only in love with the mac but in real life too

Niels

 

[David Saraceno]

I am completely and utterly fed up with Apple's nonsense.


But something you might find interesting: my ten minute test of FCP showed me it is considerably slower than Edius when it comes to displaying real time, full frame HD - when considering similarly spec-ed machines.

Which Mac did you test it on, and with what configuration, and what version of FCP?

My DP 2.5 G5 and my PB 1.67 G4 display HD full frame instantaneously.

I haven't crashed the desktop once in 18 months. Nor the PB.

Your girlfriend's experience with a G3 is unfortunate, but it seems inappropriate to indict every product since then.

I suppose no one has a similar experience on a PC?

Best wishes

 

[Yardsale]

Yeah I am reading more and more about them and it seems that there are more unsatisfied people out there then I thought. I just want to get a good solid notebook that will be able to:

a. Run Windows
b. Be powerful enough to run Premiere and whatever the needs of the HVX200 are
c. Have a wide screen display that runs bright and nice

I would like to have OSX simply because I enjoy using Macs and the things that are being offered with these new notebooks are pretty cool. I would not even think about a Mac if it could not run Windows though, because (and I have my reasons believe me) I much prefer it over OSX.

don't buy a mac if you just want something to run windows...

that's probably the dumbest logic I've ever heard...to pay a premium, abhor OSX, and want it solely to run Windows.....and still want a mac!

 

[Malcolm Wright]

Which Mac did you test it on, and with what configuration, and what version of FCP?

My DP 2.5 G5 and my PB 1.67 G4 display HD full frame instantaneously.

I haven't crashed the desktop once in 18 months. Nor the PB.

Your girlfriend's experience with a G3 is unfortunate, but it seems inappropriate to indict every product since then.

I suppose no one has a similar experience on a PC?

Best wishes

Hey D,

I won't say much because I don't want to go down the path of a PC/Mac argument.
If you reread my rant, you will find that the indictment was not because of failure of the machine - every product line has its lemons. The indictment concerned the way Apple dealt with the situation.

Obviously there are plenty of customers out there, like yourself, with happy experiences with their Macs - otherwise Apple would not be in business. The point is: what happens when you DO get a lemon, or need good tech service?

I've just had too many bad experiences with it all. I mean the experience of the guy who started this thread is deplorable: the rep lied to him to sell him the more expensive model. From my experience, her attitude stems from Apple considering that their clientele has a big portion of wealthy people with less technical knowledge than PC users, who are more interested in ease of use and stylish designs than value for money and effective budgeting - hence the belief that such lies will often work.

I wish you many years of flawless operating with you Mac. I just had a rant to get off my chest.

I don't know what version of FCP it was, and the PB was a 15 inch one with the faster chip config available in the models before the dual core migration. FCP would stop playback if that option to interrupt on dropped frames was set, so it was dropping frames.

Cheers,
M.

 

[Malcolm Wright]

Which exact Edius version do you use?

It was the broadcast version that was current when the trial test was made available three months or so ago...
I'll purchase Edius when version 4 comes out... not sure when that is but it shouldn't be much longer.

There were a few things I didn't like so much about the program, but the overall impression was very positive. The main shortcoming: the absence of keyframing in many of the filters, is being addressed for v4.

M.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

don't buy a mac if you just want something to run windows...

that's probably the dumbest logic I've ever heard...to pay a premium, abhor OSX, and want it solely to run Windows.....and still want a mac!

If Apple designed a Windows only PC's, I'd get one. It'd be no different than getting something like a high-end dell, or and Alien System. I think many PC users would get one too. I'm mostly a Mac guy, but I like have a windows machine around.

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

Do I understand well that "Edius Broadcast" will be replaced by Edius 4 (or is it called Edius Broadcast 4) ? I also read good thinks of Edius Broadcast inj threads of Barry Green. However I also read that FCP gives the least problems with DVCDpro/P2 workflow. So I am a little confused what is the best thing to buy ; a PC with edius or do I have to switch to a Mac environment with FCP (which does not support 25p if I am well informed but only 50i).

It was the broadcast version that was current when the trial test was made available three months or so ago...
I'll purchase Edius when version 4 comes out... not sure when that is but it shouldn't be much longer.

There were a few things I didn't like so much about the program, but the overall impression was very positive. The main shortcoming: the absence of keyframing in many of the filters, is being addressed for v4.

M.

 

[David Saraceno]

If Apple designed a Windows only PC's, I'd get one. It'd be no different than getting something like a high-end dell, or and Alien System. I think many PC users would get one too. I'm mostly a Mac guy, but I like have a windows machine around.

Well, interestly, you can install Windows XP Professional on MacTels and not the MacOS.

Windows only on Mac hardware.

 

[Justyn]

I can certainly defend the macbook and it's ability to handle the HVX. No problems here with the HD footage on the 13 inch macbook.. and Windows is running flawlessly. I bought this to do some WMV webcasting and for DVrack and to also do some FCP editing. The way I see it.. it's only a few hundred dollars more than a comperable PC only laptop.. with more portability and flexiblility.

I have had the total opposite in my dealings with Apple. Shoot, they even gave me the educational discount on this laptop.. and I bought the RAM and HD from OWC.. so I got a smokin' system for much less than the stock macbook pro...


Yes, sure the salesmen are going to push for the Macbook Pro as they want to sell the higher priced item... but when you do some research online.. it's clear to see that it's one of the fastest and certainly most reliable windows systems.

Just the other day I did 3 streams of windows media video live to the web and didn't run into any problems.... It's a sweet system for the cash.

FCP runs well... Photoshop is a dream. The Macbook with 2 gigs of RAM books from a cold start in 8 seconds... Now it's a fast bugger....


Loving the Macbook. I do kind of wish I could wait till the next version of the intel 2 duo core.. that next generation will be smoking.. so that would be the major question. Buy it now or get the next version which should be tons faster...

 

[ThePhage]

Justyn, are you running Photoshop on XP with that MacBook? I hear that Photoshop is slow under Rosetta with OSX.

Have you done some tests of your own?

 

[TimT]

Loving the Macbook. I do kind of wish I could wait till the next version of the intel 2 duo core.. that next generation will be smoking.. so that would be the major question. Buy it now or get the next version which should be tons faster...

Is the next version the one that's going to use.....Merom or whatever they call it, so it gives off less heat and such? I think Macmini's are using it fairly soon. Wonder when the new macbook's will use it.

I want to pick up one, but I keep stopping myself cause I think I'd be getting it more for the novelty of having a notebook, since I've never owned one before.

 

[King Cole]

I've just had too many bad experiences with it all. I mean the experience of the guy who started this thread is deplorable: the rep lied to him to sell him the more expensive model. From my experience, her attitude stems from Apple considering that their clientele has a big portion of wealthy people with less technical knowledge than PC users, who are more interested in ease of use and stylish designs than value for money and effective budgeting - hence the belief that such lies will often work.

Actually, what was said by the rep was not a lie. Apple does not officially support Final Cut Studio on the MacBooks. Nor does it support Aperture. I don't believe it is unreasonable for a company to not support high end video and graphics software on its lowest in portable computers. While some have successfully run both these apps, others have had trouble. FCP should run, but how fast is a different question.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you (addressing the OP) have tried to run FCP on the MacBook's screen, but I just loaded it on mine today to see what it was like and it is nearly impossible to do much of anything with it, simply because of the screen size.

I don't want to continue a Mac versus PC argument with this post, but I don't think that's what we are doing her as long as we stick with facts and personal experiences. It's fine if you do not like Apple, but to go so far as to suggest that they intentionally understock their stores to appear "exclusive" or popular is not only a fairly ridiculous idea, but bad business sense and not necessarily the concern of the OP here. I use both Windows and Mac OS X. I've never lost a file on the Macs I've owned, and I can't come remotely close to saying the same with PC's.

However, I think there is a very good argument for going with a Windows laptop here. I believe the MB Pro's are overpriced, and I bet following the suggestions in this thread you could find a more powerful, cheaper solution. Finally, I believe that editing in HD on a MacBook is not a very feasible alternative (though some may disagree), and I'd go with a MB Pro or a Windows machine.

JC

 

[Malcolm Wright]

Actually, what was said by the rep was not a lie. Apple does not officially support Final Cut Studio on the MacBooks. Nor does it support Aperture. I don't believe it is unreasonable for a company to not support high end video and graphics software on its lowest in portable computers. While some have successfully run both these apps, others have had trouble. FCP should run, but how fast is a different question.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you (addressing the OP) have tried to run FCP on the MacBook's screen, but I just loaded it on mine today to see what it was like and it is nearly impossible to do much of anything with it, simply because of the screen size.

I see. You are comfortable with some serious bending of the truth then. I would want the rep to tell me what you just said, in other words FCP is likely to run fine but is not officially supported.

The rep didn't say that: she said:

However when I called Apple to order the Macbook the woman I spoke with informed me that the integrated graphics were not capable of handling Final Cut Pro.

That's a lie, as far as I know.

The monitor thing is a non-issue: anyone doing serious editing on a laptop is going to connect it to a bigger screen.

I DO think it is very unreasonable to not support FCP on the MacBook at all, seeing as older, less powerful generations of Macs work fine with FCP. It is putting the bar higher than is necessary in order to try to strongarm people into buying the higher end machines.

It's fine if you do not like Apple, but to go so far as to suggest that they intentionally understock their stores to appear "exclusive" or popular is not only a fairly ridiculous idea, but bad business sense and not necessarily the concern of the OP here.

I know its not necessarily the concern of the original poster: my post starts with a disclaimer that it will probably wander from the topic.

Far from a ridiculous idea, and far from even bad business sense, consider that every business has to make a choice in the face of a popular item. Do they slightly overstock their stores, do they try to keep them perfectly stocked and run the risk of sometimes not being able to satisfy demand, or do they decide to not be too concerned about being understocked. Overstocking costs dollars, so understocking is actually good business sense when you know that the item cannot be provided by any other vendor. I sincerely believe Apple relies on its exclusivity on certain product ranges to not worry about keeping world wide store stocks quite up to speed with demand, and it will take more than you stating that it is bad business sense to change my mind.

You can also cling to your opinion: what you cannot change is my recent experience of trying to source various Apple products, starting with the one related above at the Century City store in LA, and continuing with my quest to purchase various ipod accessories (made only by Apple) in stores in Sydney and Adelaide, Australia over the course of the last three months. I was never really desperate for the accesories, so I would drift into a store whenever I happened to be near one, and each and every time I was informed they were out of stock. Half the time they would admit that I had to be lucky to get them because amounts delivered disappeared very quickly.

I use both Windows and Mac OS X. I've never lost a file on the Macs I've owned, and I can't come remotely close to saying the same with PC's.

Once again, and perhaps I should create some sort of banner to get the message across - my gripe was not about reliability of hardware but about how Apple dealt with the failing hardware, or perhaps more to the point, DIDN'T deal with it.

However, I think there is a very good argument for going with a Windows laptop here. I believe the MB Pro's are overpriced, and I bet following the suggestions in this thread you could find a more powerful, cheaper solution.

Agreed.

Finally, I believe that editing in HD on a MacBook is not a very feasible alternative (though some may disagree), and I'd go with a MB Pro or a Windows machine.

JC

There is no doubt that the MB pro will make HD editing far more comfortable. Its just that when I call a brand name computer company - and you can call me naive - I don't expect them to act like a used car dealer in their sales spiel. I expect them to give me factual answers to my questions. Happily, there are companies out there that can be counted on for such minimal courtesy.

Finally, you must understand that the inflated price of every single Apple product, from high end machines to cables and power supplies, adds insult to injury when the above complaints are considered. If I were you, I would let those who want to air their legitimate annoyance do so: as long as you are happy with your experiences with Apple, what should you care?

M.