Mac Marginalization On Essential Panasonic Utilities

[Kit_L]

The old "pro" vs. "home video" division

The old "pro" vs. "home video" division

As an ex-network live broadcast and film doco. director here, with hundreds of programs to my credit, I can say that the HMC-150 produces better video that I have ever seen before.

A "pro" (in my view) is someone who makes programs or products for sale. "Pro" gear is whatever helps that person realise that goal.

These little cameras on this board have incredible features like wave form monitors that no $75,000 cameras had 10 years ago. Just 2¢'s worth. This is progress, and the distinction between pro and amateur gear is forever blurred, I believe.

And I still think the firmware updates would be more useful coming out in Mac and PC formats together.

 

[Captain Pierce]

PerroneFord, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but there's a couple of things you've said in this thread that I feel the need to respond to.

The HMC150 is NOT targeted to pro users. It is NOT a broadcast camera, and doesn't come from that arm of the Panasonic company. It is a consumer camera, targeted directly at home video users.

No, it is not. The "AG" prefix designates that it comes from the professional video division. I don't know where "broadcast" fits in these days, maybe that's where the "AJ" prefix comes in, but (as someone who works for a company who sold a crapload of "AG" series VHS camcorders back in the day ), AG-series camcorders are not consumer; the price tag alone puts them out of consideration for the average (or even the above-average) "consumer." "Pro" doesn't necessarily equal "broadcast."

Recently, Sony released a firmware update for the popular EX1. It was PC only. And not only was it PC only, it was windows XP only! I cannot remember a single thread here or elsewhere that lamented the fact that the update was PC only.

Okay, I fully admit that I don't know much of anything about this, but the thread I found here about the 1.11 firmware upgrade says several times that Sony doesn't even want people doing that firmware upgrade themselves, they want people to send the camera in and let Sony do it--to the point of possibly even voiding the warranty if you try to do the upgrade yourself. This, obviously, is going to cut down on the number of lamentations in general. And, if true, it hardly compares to a situation where (if I understand it correctly) Panasonic expects HMC150 users to upgrade themselves.

Now, I don't own an HMC150 (although I'd certainly like to ), and I don't own a Mac, so I have no personal stake in this. But I have to agree with David S. on this--given the popularity of the Mac and Final Cut in the video world, it seems amazing the way that Panasonic seems to want to make it difficult for Mac owners. Even if you can excuse the previous lack of support, the idea of making a firmware upgrade PC-specific just seems ridiculous...

 

[Justyn]

As an ex-network live broadcast and film doco. director here, with hundreds of programs to my credit, I can say that the HMC-150 produces better video that I have ever seen before.

A "pro" (in my view) is someone who makes programs or products for sale. "Pro" gear is whatever helps that person realise that goal.

These little cameras on this board have incredible features like wave form monitors that no $75,000 cameras had 10 years ago. Just 2¢'s worth. This is progress, and the distinction between pro and amateur gear is forever blurred, I believe.

And I still think the firmware updates would be more useful coming out in Mac and PC formats together.

Extremely valid points one and all. 10 years ago, for the same price I bought an XL1. Now it was a great camera but not in the same league as the image I get out of the 150. Same price point.. but technology is the indi-filmmakers best friend. We saw it first in music production, then the DSLR, and now it's been firmly established in the HD cam world...

 

[PerroneFord]

First of all.. Sony is notoriously PC based.. since again, they make computers as well as NLE's and whatever. It makes sense for them apparantly to keep things on the PC. As far as why there were no Mac concerns is something that I wouldn't know except that most EX1 users that I know are Mac people.

This seems contradictory, but.. ok.

As stated so many times... why if you are so Happy with the "popular" EX1, why do you check and propegate the Panny boards.

Because I also own a Panasonic.

Overall, I know you've said it before.. but I wholeheartedly believe that you have some serious buyers remorse involved with your EX1, and or your workload and business isn't really killing right now.... Who knows, you might just be a contrarian... but I think you protest too much to be content with what ya purchased.

You're are welcome to believe whatever you like, but you're dead wrong. I have more business now than I've ever had, and my primary business is govt. shooting which is immune to our economy. If I had the chance tomorrow to buy my same camera or anything else on the market under $10k my choice would be exactly the same. I wish I had 2 more of them. Could have used them for corporate shoot Friday night, and my commercial shoot Saturday afternoon.

Also, does sony consider the EX1 a "professional" standard camera by your definition? Is it a true broadcast camera when they have much more expensive flagship cams.. I think that just is a super backhanded comment that once again is a dig against a cam that I've produced broadcast work with.. got great comments over.. and right now 3 of my buddies have sold their HVXs and bought 150s instead. Interestingly enough though, they didn't buy the EX1 or the EX3.\

Sony does consider them Pro (as denoted by the CineAlta label). Frankly, any camera with an SDI out qualifies in my view. That's not the sole criteria in my view, but certainly speaks to the intended audience. I am not making any backhanded comments at any camera. That's your own insecurity talking. I've done broadcast footage with my DVX. Does that make it a "pro camera"? Not in my view though many people used it for that purpose.

I think you feel convicted about both your camera purchase and your editing system. That's something that happens when people are genuinely happy with something and another person isn't. They get defensive and argumentative. IF you are indeed happy with it, then let your words and actions display that.. otherwise you come off as quite insecure. CONVICTED!!!

I certainly don't feel convicted about my camera, though Vegas irks me no end sometimes. I'd much rather be on Avid, but we can't afford that right now after upgrading to our all HD workflow. Maybe when the economy improves.

peace out and you do have some great points on the boards, but other times.. Not so much!

Such is the nature of open discussion. And regardless how much you disagree with me, I won't personally attack you, or your camera. I wish you'd do the same. Ironically, the HMC150 was the only Panny camera I considered seriouly in this latest round of purchasing. It simply was not going to ship before my fiscal year closed and fell out of contention. Seeing what it will do compared to the EX1, I prefer my camera, but would have been quite happy with either.

 

[Barry_Green]

Can someone point Jan from Panasonic to this thread?

Jan has nothing to do with the AVCHD lineup. She is the product manager for the HVX200A, HPX170, HPX300 and HPX500. So she's P2-only. (of course, we have our own share of struggles with P2 utilities being supported primarily Windows-first, but that's a different discussion).

So Jan has no involvement here. There is another product manager for AVCHD products. I have pointed this thread out to him and made him aware of just how silly the non-parity situation is, and have been assured that he will do what he can.

 

[Barry_Green]

The HMC150 is NOT targeted to pro users. It is NOT a broadcast camera, and doesn't come from that arm of the Panasonic company.

This is 100% incorrect. The HMC150 is sold by Panasonic Broadcast, the same company that makes and sells the HPX3700 and all the professional and broadcast equipment.

It is a consumer camera, targeted directly at home video users.

Absolutely 100% incorrect. The HMC150 is targeted directly at professional users. Not necessarily broadcasters, although they're welcome to it if they want it. Panasonic considers their broadcast division to cater to primarily two markets, the "Professional" series and the "Broadcast" series. Broadcast is for the top-end users, and "broadcast"-level products typically have an AJ prefix (such as the AJ-HPX3000). "Professional" products are aimed at professional users, meaning those who make a living in video, and also lower-end broadcasters. The "professional" products typically have an "AG" prefix, such as the AG-HMC150 or AG-HPX500.

The lines, however, are blurred. NBC, one of the biggest broadcast groups around, just bought boatloads of the AG-HPX170 and the AG-HPX300. Considering that the HPX170 and HMC150 are largely identical hardware, differing primarily in their recording formats, it's hard to see how one could say that the 150 is anything but fully professional.

The consumer division makes and sells probably a thousand cameras for every one the broadcast division makes and sells. The consumer division sells through stores such as Best Buy. The broadcast division sells only through professional video retailers. You buy an HMC150 from Abel Cine Tech, not from Fry's. You buy an SD100 from Fry's, not from Abel. Different divisions sell through different resellers, and the HMC150 is sold and supported by the professional video dealer network.

From the other side of the fence, it's frustrating to me as a PC user when I see that Macs get support from folks like RED or others. And it's not that the PC stuff comes later. It NEVER comes. And this type of behavior does nothing to help the market, or endear Windows based video editors to your platform.

Totally agree here. Completely. Which is why, even though I don't use nor care for the Mac at all, I still support the rights of the Mac users to parity.

 

[Barry_Green]

Hi all,
Just checking does the latest update for fcp 6.0.5 , enable fcp to work on avchd native and edit on pro res 422 codec.

Yes, you import the native AVCHD footage from the SD card and FCP 6.0.5 transcodes it to ProRes 422.

The next version of FCP is supposed to support editing the AVCHD footage without needing to transcode to ProRes as well.

 

[BrianMurphy]

Yes, you import the native AVCHD footage from the SD card and FCP 6.0.5 transcodes it to ProRes 422.

The next version of FCP is supposed to support editing the AVCHD footage without needing to transcode to ProRes as well.

Barry was there any indication when this might be released?

 

[Dafilman21]

Once again Barry sets the record straight!

 

[Barry_Green]

Interesting discussion. Currently, Macs comprise less than 8% (some estimates have it as low as 3.5%) of the personal computer market share, with PCs comprising nearly 91%.

These numbers are correct.

Now I realize that this is skewed in terms of video work, but I would hazard a guess that PCs still outnumber Macs 2:1 if not more.

This, however, doesn't jibe with my experience in seminars & training. Welcome to bizarro-world, but when I do bootcamps or other training seminars, I find that at LEAST 85% of the participants are using the Mac. At least. It's been as high as 95%.

Among the more professional broadcast clients, it can be 50/50. The more Avids there are in a shop, the more likely it is to be a Windows shop.

But among individual/personal users, in the US, I can't find a circumstance where Windows units are in the majority. It must be out there, but I haven't encountered it. :thumbsup:

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry was there any indication when this might be released?

None whatsoever.

 

[David Saraceno]

Barry was there any indication when this might be released?

Apple is pretty closed mouth about release dates of hardware and software.

Those that know can't say and there are no assurances that support will or won't be implemented.

The "announcement" was made at the IBC Final Cut Pro Supermeet at IBC September.

There is a podcast of the Apple presentation at LAFCPUG.org.

I started this thread to bring attention to the issues of platform agnostic firmware updates and the need to address parity between Panasonic developed and released utilities for Mac and PC for the 150, 170, 200, 300 and others.

Barry indicates that it has been brought to the attention of the powers that be at Panasonic.

I am grateful that he has done that.

I know for a fact that this issue has been a concern for some time now and has been expressed to the company at other levels.

Let's hope that it will be addressed.


best

 

[PerroneFord]

This is 100% incorrect. The HMC150 is sold by Panasonic Broadcast, the same company that makes and sells the HPX3700 and all the professional and broadcast equipment.

Thank you for the correction here.

Absolutely 100% incorrect. The HMC150 is targeted directly at professional users. Not necessarily broadcasters, although they're welcome to it if they want it.

I guess my incorrect delineation between consumer and pro was the cause of the issue. I tend to view broadcast/film as pro, and other as consumer. Panasonic doesn't break it that way.


I never meant for this to jump off on this tangent though. The real issue is whether Panasonic should be releasing PC/Mac stuff together. My thoughts, right or wrong was yes probably so, though I didn't necessarily see an issue with it being a couple weeks later maybe. Mac/HMC150 owners clearly feel slighted though and I guess that's something can/should address.

 

[David Saraceno]

Barry just posted information that a firmware update for the HPX170 has been released and can be downloaded at Panasonic's web site.

You can install it using a SD card in the cam.

Of course, there is a Macintosh twist.

You have to agree to a release if you download and unzip it in Leopard.

The release notes specify that unzipping it must be done either in Windows or in 10.4.

Leopard has been out for nearly a year and half.