Mac Marginalization On Essential Panasonic Utilities

You know, I'd have understood this more six years ago, when Macs were still using PowerPC processors. But currently, with Macs using Intel architecture, it would probably take an engineer about a day or two of work to port the Windows version of these utilities to Mac. We're not talking about complex apps like Photoshop.

As far as marketshare goes, in fifteen years in the production/post industry, and having worked in hundreds of post houses, I could only count ten or twelve that used Windows as the primary editing hardware OS. Not a scientific sample, for sure, but I'd say the ratio of Mac to Windows users is probably closer than many might think.
 
Thanks for the stats PerroneFord. Happy you enjoy your platform and Microsoft. As I wrote elsewhere, if the camera was to be another piece of "Microsoft compatible only" equipment, then we should have been told this before buying. Your stats are skewed to support your opinion. Even if your "hazard guess" 2:1 were close and I doubt it, since there are still lots of Avid systems out there running on Macs and all the Flame,Smoke and Infernos...still working on Unix as well as all the older FCP systems on PPCs. There are even people doing off-line work on old Mac Quadra based Avids (my first digital non-linear system).
Panasonic should support ALL of its customers and at the very least explain why they have YET to release the update in a Mac compatible form or why not just figure out how to load this from an SD card like the 170.
Why should I have to buy a new operating system and load it and reconfigure my hardware? I don't want to run a Microsoft OS on my computer. I don't need it and all the hassles and viri and nonsense that come with it and its associated software.
I made the transition to lightweight Panasonic cameras from Sony Betacams three years ago reluctantly and was surprised by the support and community that had formed around Panasonic. I want to stay a part of that community.I like my HMC 150 and look forward to woriking with it as I did and have with my DVX 100B. But if I have to go out and retool my hardware to get this camera to work for me because of Panasonic abandoning my hardware.... it won't happen.
There are many other options to choose from and I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. So I hope this is all an oversight on Panasonic's behalf and we will all be happy campers again soon.
 
PerroneFord said:
Interesting discussion. Currently, Macs comprise less than 8% (some estimates have it as low as 3.5%) of the personal computer market share, with PCs comprising nearly 91%.

Now I realize that this is skewed in terms of video work, but I would hazard a guess that PCs still outnumber Macs 2:1 if not more. I guess I can see feeling marginalized, but on the surface, one could say Macs in general get a disproportionate amount of attention when compared to their market share.

In terms of how we'd feel if firmware updates were mac only? I can honestly say that it is a HELL of a lot easier to find a buddy with a PC or Windows laptop, than a Mac anything. We also have no Bootcamp option. Apple is the industry KING of locking PC folks out from sharing and collaborating with Mac people. Perhaps if that corporate culture changed, things would be easier.
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Agreed!

I have to say however that both PC and Mac options should not even be an issue. I'll not use a Mac but I think they need to have their needs addressed as it would only increase the over all good of what it is we do... Shoot and edit.
 
BrianMurphy said:
Your stats are skewed to support your opinion.

Panasonic should support ALL of its customers and at the very least explain why they have YET to release the update in a Mac compatible form or why not just figure out how to load this from an SD card like the 170.
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I'm not sure how posting stats from independent computer survey groups is skewing stats to support my opinion. You can look at market share numbers for yourself from 2000-2008 and they all will tell you the same thing. Macs are a very small part of the general personal computer market. As I stated, they are a larger part of the video market.

Let's say for a moment that PCs and Macs are equally represented in the video world. Or let's say that Macs are perhaps even more represented in the professional video world.

The HMC150 is NOT targeted to pro users. It is NOT a broadcast camera, and doesn't come from that arm of the Panasonic company. It is a consumer camera, targeted directly at home video users. Given that, wouldn't it seem prudent that Panasonic or any other company targeting products at HOME users would support the largest platform first, and more often?

From the other side of the fence, it's frustrating to me as a PC user when I see that Macs get support from folks like RED or others. And it's not that the PC stuff comes later. It NEVER comes. And this type of behavior does nothing to help the market, or endear Windows based video editors to your platform.

I am not interested in platform wars. Frankly I could care less what people work on. And I think that Panasonic should support it's 2 largest customer bases equally. That said, I don't necessarily blame them for concentrating their efforts on 90% of the market first. Or whatever the numbers may be for Windows based HMC150 users.
 
PerroneFord said:
Now I realize that this is skewed in terms of video work, but I would hazard a guess that PCs still outnumber Macs 2:1 if not more.
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That's not what Barry Green has reported from his observations about HVX200 and HPX170.

His observation at various seminars was the opposite.

More Macs than PCs for Panasonic products.

All our local newstations use p2 cams, and Final Cut Pro here in Spokane.

Anecdotal, but telling.
 
PerroneFord said:
From the other side of the fence, it's frustrating to me as a PC user when I see that Macs get support from folks like RED or others. And it's not that the PC stuff comes later. It NEVER comes. And this type of behavior does nothing to help the market, or endear Windows based video editors to your platform.

That said, I don't necessarily blame them for concentrating their efforts on 90% of the market first. Or whatever the numbers may be for Windows based HMC150 users.
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But the user base for video isn't 90% PC based.

As others have stated, it looks to be mostly Mac.

FCP has more than 1,000,000 seats a/t an announcement at IBC Amsterdam last year.

My point doesn't devolve on whether the 150 is consumer, professional or prosumer.

It produces video every bit as good as our original HVX200.

To provide a firmware update that requires a Mac user to buy a PC or install another OS to achieve a bug fix doesn't seem to pass "it doesn't make sense" test.

AVCHD Viewer and AVCHD to p2 converter have been out for months.

They are PC only.

I can understand waiting on these things, or at least an announcement indicating a timetable to develop them for the Mac.

On firmware however, it's a different story
 
David S. said:
To provide a firmware update that requires a Mac user to buy a PC or install another OS to achieve a bug fix doesn't seem to pass "it doesn't make sense" test.

AVCHD Viewer and AVCHD to p2 converter have been out for months.

They are PC only.

I can understand waiting on these things, or at least an announcement indicating a timetable to develop them for the Mac.

On firmware however, it's a different story
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Recently, Sony released a firmware update for the popular EX1. It was PC only. And not only was it PC only, it was windows XP only! I cannot remember a single thread here or elsewhere that lamented the fact that the update was PC only.

I'm not saying this to lessen your point, only that it seemed very odd to me, that the circumstances from another manufacturer were similar, even more restricting, and there was no comment on it at all.

I DO understand your point, and yet again, I agree that Panasonic should be supporting the various platforms. How long has the update been out? Days, weeks, months? I agree an announcement would probably have alleviated some stress regarding the matter.
 
I think there's also more HVX/HPX/HMC users than there are EX1 users. I know Sony has sold a bunch of EX1s and EX3s, but Panasonic's user base has to be significantly larger, simply based on how much longer these cameras have been available.
 
PerroneFord said:
Apparently only in the Panasonic/Mac grouping...
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Obviously, because I and many here and apparently elswhere buy Panasonic products.

I can't speak for Sony or JVC or Canon.

and don't populate those boards.

But Panasonic appears to have a substantial Mac user base.

Hence the need to keep parity for its users
 
PerroneFord said:
Recently, Sony released a firmware update for the popular EX1. It was PC only. And not only was it PC only, it was windows XP only! I cannot remember a single thread here or elsewhere that lamented the fact that the update was PC only.

I'm not saying this to lessen your point, only that it seemed very odd to me, that the circumstances from another manufacturer were similar, even more restricting, and there was no comment on it at all.

I DO understand your point, and yet again, I agree that Panasonic should be supporting the various platforms. How long has the update been out? Days, weeks, months? I agree an announcement would probably have alleviated some stress regarding the matter.
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First of all.. Sony is notoriously PC based.. since again, they make computers as well as NLE's and whatever. It makes sense for them apparantly to keep things on the PC. As far as why there were no Mac concerns is something that I wouldn't know except that most EX1 users that I know are Mac people.


I agree with the other poster about Mac's in the workplace.. In the professional workplace. After 18 years of working in this biz, I've only known two professionals.. and two production people who use windows, much to their own chagrin. I'd hazzard a guess as to say 70 percent of all people in this business are on the Mac... that are Really making money at it. A large percentage of windows people from what I have seen are dabblers, more event people, and those running the cheapest ship possible.


As stated so many times... why if you are so Happy with the "popular" EX1, why do you check and propegate the Panny boards. I wouldn't be doing that if I were happy with my camera. I'm not on the EX1 boards rumaging through stuff, lamenting, or applauding one camera or one platform over another. I'd be searching and learning and sharing as much about what I have.. Which is what I do. Overall, I know you've said it before.. but I wholeheartedly believe that you have some serious buyers remorse involved with your EX1, and or your workload and business isn't really killing right now.... Who knows, you might just be a contrarian... but I think you protest too much to be content with what ya purchased.


Also, does sony consider the EX1 a "professional" standard camera by your definition? Is it a true broadcast camera when they have much more expensive flagship cams.. I think that just is a super backhanded comment that once again is a dig against a cam that I've produced broadcast work with.. got great comments over.. and right now 3 of my buddies have sold their HVXs and bought 150s instead. Interestingly enough though, they didn't buy the EX1 or the EX3.

The EX1 does shoot a nice image no doubt and it's sharp as hell, and as you've stated before you don't ever have to shoot handheld.. . But that's not my world, I do and that EX1 was the worst handheld camera package I've ever shot with. Simply AWEFUL.... If I did one type of work, then I'd consider it.. but I don't and didn't.


Overall, this forum is great because our concerns are heard. This wasn't a flame post by David. Just a call out to his Mac DVXuser buddies to come together to say.. hey, we want' equal stuff. Plain and simple.. .and maybe if one day you can come to grips with your PC and your EX1 then you'll be happy in applauding it instead of commenting on the negatives...

As one more potential comment, the only time I've really ever heard a PC person talkign positively about their system is in deference to a MAC person applauding his. I


I think you feel convicted about both your camera purchase and your editing system. That's something that happens when people are genuinely happy with something and another person isn't. They get defensive and argumentative. IF you are indeed happy with it, then let your words and actions display that.. otherwise you come off as quite insecure. CONVICTED!!!


peace out and you do have some great points on the boards, but other times.. Not so much!
 
Barry Green is absolutely right in stating "There's the way things should be, and there's the way things IS." It would be great to have parity in Mac offerings from Panasonic . But until that happens getting Bootcamp or borrowing a friend's PC is the only way to update firmware . That's not desirable but that's the way it is right now . I personally use both Mac and PC platforms . I started editing on Non Linear Editing systems using Mac Quadras . I then bought an Avid Meridien system running on an IBM windows NT machine and loved it because at the time it was a faster computer than the Macs . I now primarely use Macs for my editing but also use Windows based machines that I've built myself . This industry will always be in a constant state of flux and we will have to adapt to what's out there even if it's not always the ideal situation.

Dave
 
My original post was gauged to draw attention to this serious concern by Mac users to Panasonic, and minimize Panasonic's marginalization of Mac users.

I think Jan Crittenton is the consummate professional Panasonic representative.

I hope she can assist in some manner.

It would be greatly appreciated to learn the company's position on:

1. The importance of providing firmware updates in a platform agnostic manner;

2. Bringing Windows only HMC/HVX/HPX utilities to the Mac in a timely manner.

best
 
David S. said:
1. The importance of bringing firmware updates in a platform agnostic manner;

2. Bringing Windows only HMC/HVX/HPX utilities to the Mac in a timely manner.

best
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My first post was a little left, but let me just state that I am behind the above request 100%.

As an aside there was a poll a long time ago for hvxusers regarding the platform they used - out of 107 respondents 64 were on mac and 36 pc, not a complete market cross section , but I think its fairly evident where the weight of users on this forum are in terms of using p2. See poll here http://66.225.214.124/~dvxuser/V6/showthread.php?t=122803
 
Maybe it has something to do with PC systems being open sourced integrated, while Mac based seems to have everything going through apple?

If you were a car maker that came out with a car that got 70 mpg on corn oil,
you would probably worry more about making the car, than the people complaining about trying to get it to work using gasoline.

I know what you are saying, but without knowing the reasons as spoken from Panasonic,
you can not say what it is.

I am sure they want your money as much as anyone else, and will do what is needed to get it, that being said, there is probably a reason. MAybe thier software team is not trained as mac programers, most of them probably work for apple directly. Who knows.

In any case, with any system, you would likely have to buy a new computer and editing software to use it anyway. If you bought a mac, is it Panasonics problem or yours?

I am not trying to sound harsh, not sure how to change the tone with text.

I would be upset as well, as I always am when Cineform does something to put my Premiere system down.
 
Without going off on the PC vs Mac tangent, does anybody know what this update does anyway. Is it just for the 150 or for the 151 etc. as well?

If I have to I will borrow a PC of somebody, no way am I installing windows on my Mac!!!!
 
PerroneFord wrote:
The HMC150 is NOT targeted to pro users. It is NOT a broadcast camera, and doesn't come from that arm of the Panasonic company. It is a consumer camera, targeted directly at home video users.
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Really?
Hmm... My friend I have been making broadcast television for 30+ years in Canada, the USA,the UK and Europe and South America. I consider myself to be a professional
I shoot broadcast television with a DVX100B camera, I am shooting broadcast television with an HMC150 camera.
I bought the camera from a "Pro" dealer who also sell your fine camera and right up the ladder for as much as you want to spend. They consider it a pro camera and they sell it to pros. Face it friend,
it is what you do/make with your gear that matters to most "pros".
I rather doubt the "Home Market" wants a camcorder the size of the HMC150 to shoot vids of Uncle Phil wearing his thong on the beach in Cancun. The HVC 30 or something like that seems a more likely choice.
 
BrianMurphy said:
Really?
Hmm... My friend I have been making broadcast television for 30+ years in Canada, the USA,the UK and Europe and South America. I consider myself to be a professional
I shoot broadcast television with a DVX100B camera, I am shooting broadcast television with an HMC150 camera.
I bought the camera from a "Pro" dealer who also sell your fine camera and right up the ladder for as much as you want to spend. They consider it a pro camera and they sell it to pros. Face it friend,
it is what you do/make with your gear that matters to most "pros".
I rather doubt the "Home Market" wants a camcorder the size of the HMC150 to shoot vids of Uncle Phil wearing his thong on the beach in Cancun. The HVC 30 or something like that seems a more likely choice.
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Yes, I thought his comment about the 150 was strange as well. Consumer camcorders are the little ones where you are lucky if you get a mic jack, never mind XLR ports etc.

The HMC is clearly aimed at pro users and maybe student film makers etc. I guess some people would define a broadcast camera as having 2/3 inch chips, but in that case the EX1/3 are not broadcast either.
 
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