Lower Cost Alternative to P2?

Alex Leith

Alex Leith

Well-known member
I'm in the market for a new camera, and I'm deciding between one of the XDCAM HD camcorders and the HPX500... (yes I know this is a subsection of the HVX200 area of DVXuser... but this is about P2 workflow)

The thing holding me back from the HPX500 is that the P2 workflow will not work "comfortably" for me - that is to say I could get it to work, but it would be considerably less convenient than the Sony Professional Media (unless I spend huge amounts that I don't have on P2 cards)

So, with ExpressCard Flash Memory already available for considerably less than equivalent sized P2 cards (and supporting presumably adequate write speeds of more than 170mb/s) is there any way that one could use an adaptor such as this: http://www.elandigitalsystems.com/expresscard/eca16.php to bung a more economically priced bit of memory into the camera?

I know P2 cards have a little RAID of flash cards going on inside, but I don't remember whether P2 is a totally proprietary interface or not...
 
Someone could develop such an adapter, but nobody as yet has. I lobbied Spec-Comm to make such a thing.

P2 pricing got a lot more aggressive than we expected, and if Sony does succeed in bringing out a lower-cost memory alternative, I would expect that P2 pricing would match it toe-to-toe. Panasonic's always been lower cost than Sony across the board, and I don't see why this would be any different.

With that said, the disc system is just a different type of recording than the memory system. There are some shooters whose workflows would be more suited to a tape or dics workflow, and you may be one of them. But also consider the size of the cards; with an HPX500 and four 16GB cards that's an hour of 1080, or two hours of 720/25p; with four 32GB cards those sizes double, so you'd have four hours of 720/25p in-camera at once in November.
 
Realize also that if you go with the XDcam HD that you'll have to also get a deck for ingesting your footage, whereas with p2 its an IT-based workflow. Those XDcam decks aren't cheap.
 
Okay, so am I right in understanding that the P2 interface is not just a straight-through PCMCIA - existing ExpressCard to PCMCIA adaptors don't work so an ExpressCard to P2 adaptor would need to comply to the P2 specs...

I hope that Panasonic could potentially match ExpressCard Flash memory prices... For people like myself I need capacity over speed, and I'd be happy to take a performance hit (down from P2's 640mbit/s) if it meant cheaper cards.

I see that HSC are doing 8GB ExpressCard Flash memory for $440 (176mbit/s). Lexar are pricing their 8GB 250mbit/s cards at $200. And these are early days for ExpressCard Flash memory, so it's likely to get even cheaper...

If Spec-Comm did produce an adaptor, I'm sure they'd sell like hot cakes!
 
mcgeedigital said:
Realize also that if you go with the XDcam HD that you'll have to also get a deck for ingesting your footage, whereas with p2 its an IT-based workflow. Those XDcam decks aren't cheap.
Click to expand...

I'm (mostly) a one-man band, so I can use the XDCAM HD camera to do file transfer over a firewire cable.

I'm really torn. I love the XDCAM HD workflow, but the HPX500 is really attractive in terms of price, 2/3 in CCDs, Panasonic gamma and colorometry, and the CAC lens option...
 
Realize also that if you go with the XDcam HD that you'll have to also get a deck for ingesting your footage
Click to expand...
Not cheap, but getting cheaper; they introduced a $3,000 (or so) standalone disc reader device. It's not a "deck" per se, it doesn't have video connections etc., but it would let you copy the footage off of a disc and into the computer.
 
Alex Leith said:
Okay, so am I right in understanding that the P2 interface is not just a straight-through PCMCIA - existing ExpressCard to PCMCIA adaptors don't work so an ExpressCard to P2 adaptor would need to comply to the P2 specs...
Click to expand...
The P2 card itself is a straight-through PCMCIA interface. There's only one ExpressCard to PCMCIA adapter in existence right now, and yes it does work with the P2 card.

I see that HSC are doing 8GB ExpressCard Flash memory for $440 (176mbit/s). Lexar are pricing their 8GB 250mbit/s cards at $200. And these are early days for ExpressCard Flash memory, so it's likely to get even cheaper...
Click to expand...
ExpressCard flash memory isn't fundamentally any different than any other type of memory; I mean, there's nothing "magical" about it being in an ExpressCard form factor. If it's going to have the speed of a P2 card (and they claim SxS will be 800 megabit) then it's going to have to use a similar RAID LSI type of interface, which means it'll likely be a more expensive/proprietary system. It remains to be seen whether Sony's proposed ExpressCard system would work with off-the-shelf SSDs or whether it would require their own proprietary SxS cards. And if so, we don't know what those SxS cards will cost yet.
 
Barry_Green said:
The P2 card itself is a straight-through PCMCIA interface. There's only one ExpressCard to PCMCIA adapter in existence right now, and yes it does work with the P2 card.
Click to expand...

Are we talking about the same way round? I was suggesting a PCMCIA adaptor that would hold an ExpressCard Flash Memory card, and go into the P2 slot of the camera.

But I'm assuming that wouldn't work...? Just as I'm assuming that you couldn't put an existing PCMCIA Flash Memory card into a P2 slot (regardless of the speed issue) and get it to work...?

Barry_Green said:
ExpressCard flash memory isn't fundamentally any different than any other type of memory; I mean, there's nothing "magical" about it being in an ExpressCard form factor. If it's going to have the speed of a P2 card (and they claim SxS will be 800 megabit) then it's going to have to use a similar RAID LSI type of interface, which means it'll likely be a more expensive/proprietary system. It remains to be seen whether Sony's proposed ExpressCard system would work with off-the-shelf SSDs or whether it would require their own proprietary SxS cards. And if so, we don't know what those SxS cards will cost yet.
Click to expand...

Sure thing. I understand that you get what you pay for and a cheaper card would have to forego the internal RAID (and consequently speed).

I'm simply looking for affordable workflow solutions that allow me to work a series of long continuous days with the HPX500, especially without having to lug around too much outboard gear (hard drives, laptops, P2 Stores, etc, etc.) or worry about transfering in the field. I can live with slower access if it meant I could afford 15-20 hours of 1080.

(PS. Thanks for your input.)
 
Alex Leith said:
Are we talking about the same way round? I was suggesting a PCMCIA adaptor that would hold an ExpressCard Flash Memory card, and go into the P2 slot of the camera.
Click to expand...
No, I'm talking about an adapter that lets you put a P2 card into an ExpressCard slot (well, not INTO it, per se, but attach it to that).

But I'm assuming that wouldn't work...? Just as I'm assuming that you couldn't put an existing PCMCIA Flash Memory card into a P2 slot (regardless of the speed issue) and get it to work...?
Click to expand...
You could design a P2-compatible ExpressCard, but nobody has done so yet. It's not a matter of interface, it's a matter of intelligence in the card. It's the same reason that you can't just plug any old firewire drive into an HVX and start recording; it has to be an "intelligent" hard drive (like the FireStore). Same thing applies to memory cards -- the cards have to be intelligent and receive and interpret the commands being sent by the camera. P2 cards have that intelligence. If someone were to build that same intelligence in an ExpressCard form factor, and then design a PCMCIA->ExpressCard adapter, then yes what you propose would work.

I've proposed just such a product several times to some manufacturers; I think it'd fill a gap in the existing P2 workflow environment. So far, no takers.


I'm simply looking for affordable workflow solutions that allow me to work a series of long continuous days with the HPX500, especially without having to lug around too much outboard gear (hard drives, laptops, P2 Stores, etc, etc.) or worry about transfering in the field. I can live with slower access if it meant I could afford 15-20 hours of 1080.
Click to expand...
Such a thing doesn't exist yet. With five to 8 128GB cards you'd have 10 to 15 hours of continuous 1080 recording, but that won't be a practical reality for a couple of years. Certainly would be portable though.

Transferring "in the field" is going by the wayside too; in November with four 32GB cards you'll have 128 minutes of 1080 footage in-camera, which would be enough for a full day's footage for most types of shooting; you can offload at night while you sleep. Pack a 500GB hard disk with you, use bus-mastering at night, and it should offload all the cards effortlessly and you'll be fresh and ready for the next day. No laptop, no battery worries, no field offloading, just a simple bus-powered hard disk (or a bunch of 120GB bus-powered drives, so you don't have every stitch of fooage on one drive). Probably fit four of 'em in the pocket of a production vest if you needed to.

I'm not saying it'll work for what you want, I'm just pointing out that today's limitations won't always be there. And considering the HPX500 is half the cost of the XDCAM-HD system, and that it's 2/3" instead of 1/2", the question becomes whether the temporary inconveniences are worth the price differences. You may decide that XDCAM discs are perfect for your workflow and that the price difference is justified. There are obviously customers for which the disc-based approach is the more appropriate workflow. Just evaluate the systems based on what you need, and pick the one that works best for you.
 
Right. I think I understand now. A P2 card is an intelligent device not simply a dumb storage card. Therefore the existing dumb storage devices won't work in a P2 slot because there's no brain. And looking at cheaper ExpressCards longingly is not going to work until someone creates a purpose built solution.

Workflow wise, yes, HD transfers at night could work. A further 6x16GB cards cost £3000 GBP ($6K) over here. That would give me 2.5 hours of 1080 (which is roughly the maximum I expect to shoot in a day).

Alas the price difference between XDCAM HD and HPX500 doesn't seem to have filtered through to the UK...

The F350 (body only) retails at around £10,500 GBP ($21K) and the HPX500 (body plus 4x16GB cards) is £9,900 GBP ($20K). But I wonder if that's just 'cause they're brand spanking new... There's a place not too far that has them in stock! Can I resist???

Still, even so it's not a decision that I'm taking lightly. I loved the image that my little DVX's gave about a million times more than any other (non Panasonic) camera I've owned so far... sigh.
 
Really? Bizarre. Over here the F350 body is $28,000 and the HPX500 body is $14,000. B&H has the F350 for about $24,500 and I've seen the HPX500 body listed at $12,500 (and $13,500 with four cards).

$13,500 would be $6800 GBP.
 
Oh my... *gosh* [or substitute an expletive]

If the HPX was $13,500 with cards over here this decision would so be a no-brainer...

Wah!
 
Alex Leith said:
Oh my... *gosh* [or substitute an expletive]

If the HPX was $13,500 with cards over here this decision would so be a no-brainer...

Wah!
Click to expand...

Notice that the HPX is NTSC and PAL- Maybe a trip to the Us would be in order? ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top