Love Panna but not down with P2

More credit for 720p.....

"The 720p format has been regarded by some camps as the “annoying little brother” of 1080i since the transition to digital television started. Some have even implied that it's not really a true HD format. Only three major networks use it (ABC, Fox, and ESPN), while the rest of the HD world seems to favor 1080i for program acquisition as well as distribution.

But 720p is a Ôfrom scratch' HD format that took advantage of a change from SD to HD to enable progressive picture capture and display. In contrast, 1080i is a legacy format, adapted from the older Japanese 1125-line analog interlaced system.

While it wouldn't be a fair competition between 720p and a 1080-line progressive-scan format with fast picture refresh rates, the fact is that no such camera or broadcast format (1080p/60) exists right now – it would require too much bandwidth or lots of signal compression for distribution, and one heckuva bit rate (over 2 Gb/s uncompressed) for acquisition. (The current 1080p acquisition format uses a 24 Hz frame rate).

Basically, 720p/60 vs. 1080i/30 “shootouts” are pretty even. Consider that, in one frame of a 1080i/30 picture, there are 2,073,600 pixels of picture data. However, that frame consists of two interlaced fields, each refreshing at 1/60 and containing 1,036.800 pixels. A 720p/60 picture has 921,000 pixels refreshing each 1/60 of a second – only 11% less. You'd need a true 1080p display to see any difference.

What's more; 720p has none of the intraframe motion artifacts associated with an interlaced scanning picture capture system. That's one big reason that ABC and ESPN HD decided to use 720p for their live coverage of sporting events, and it's also a big reason why Fox opted to use the format when they started delivering HD programming.

Based on my observations of actual broadcasts and camera tests over the past six years, 720p/60 also tolerates MPEG-2 compression better without introducing such artifacts as mosquito noise and macroblocking that seem to plague 1080i content.

Keep in mind that 720p cameras use full-resolution CCDs with 1280x720 pixels, while 1080i cameras employ CCDs with only 1440x1080 pixels, requiring sub-sampling to pick up the additional 480 horizontal pixels.

Another factor that plays into 720p's favor is the abundance of monitors and TVs with native 720p resolution. Even the biggest proponents of 1080i are now selling flat-panel LCD and plasma monitors that only have 768 vertical lines of picture resolution – LCD monitors up to and including 42” designs are maxed-out at 1280x768 or 1366x768, while plasma monitors don't hit the 1080p count until they are over 65 inches in screen size.

In short, 720p represents a nice camera-to-screen HD solution, and it is exciting news indeed that JVC and Panasonic will have new 720p cameras with 24p, 30p, and ultimately 60p frame rates at the show. If you're attending NAB, try to look at the NAB-HD content on a variety of displays as close as you can get, and see if you think 1080i/30 still has the edge as a “serious” HD format. "
 
stephenlnoe said:
HDV's file format is M2T which is HDTV. Anything shot on an HDV camera is broadcast ready unless it needs editing. You guys talk alot of smack....

I'm not an HDV champion but it does have a very important place, right now.

If you are referring to my post, I told you I didn't know much. I am simply still learning about all this stuff. Instead of using the word "format" I should have specified "recording medium". I was speaking to the DVCproHD, DV, DVCpro50--established recording mediums in the industry.

I do see where the allure of HDV right now comes from. I'm in college so I know more than anyone how money can be tight, but yet I am still considering the HVX over HDV if not for SD now, HD later idea. Of course, I think, in retrospect of Barry Green's (I think) words:

"Don't chase technology, because you'll never catch it."--it was something to this effect.

Being broke, if I'm going to put all my marbles in a bag, I want to make sure that it is the absolutely most durable and best bag that I can get. I figure that the price of HVX and HD100 being the same, since I look at it from a filmmaking aspect instead of broadcasting, there's no point really relying upon HiDef. Which is why it's reassuring to purchase the HVX--it has superior SD and DV capabilities, while offering the HD if I want to take it farther.

On that note, instead of buying the HVX, I might just get a DVX and accessorize up the wazzu! (that's kind of what I'm planning on anyway) I just didn't want to close any potentially open doors.
 
Check out Alan Roberts reply to me (6th post down) for an explanation of how 720p really compares to 1080i. Alan is arguably the most knowledgable person on the planet when it comes to HD. He's taken apart and set up every single HD camera known to man, and a lot that only made prototype stage. His setups are used all over thw world, so you can pretty uch take his answer as definitive if anyone starts the 720p vs 1080i debate ever again!

http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66570&page=2&pp=10
 
stephenlnoe said:
HDV's file format is M2T which is HDTV. Anything shot on an HDV camera is broadcast ready unless it needs editing. You guys talk alot of smack....

Please define smack. Is it not liking a particular aquisition format? DV sucks for me, but it's all I can afford. HDV is not too terribly much cheaper than DVCPRO HD will be. No too much cheaper considering that it was a $60,000 difference before.

I'm not an HDV champion but it does have a very important place, right now.

Kinda sounds like it. :huh:
 
Alan's writeup is indeed comprehensive and factual. But I do think it should be revisited in light of the inclusion of 1080/24p, something we didn't have before.

His writeup compares chroma sampling for 720, but doesn't include 1080. As he rightly points out, prior to the introduction of the HVX, there wasn't really a 1080 DVCPRO-HD camera that we the public were overly concerned with, but now it becomes of paramount importance.

The excellent part of it all is -- with the HVX, you get both. You get it all. 1080 or 720, progressive or interlaced.
 
Barry, yes, 1080p is new. But Alan accounts for that. Remember he discusses 1080i compared with 720p. He makes mention (cant remember if it was that precise post) that 1080p is different. The point of the post was to illustrate why in terms of perceptive resolution 1080i doesn't really have any advantage over 720p.

However, like you say 1080p DVCproHD is new. I may make mention of that to him. He's a big Panny supporter and if I remember rightly had some input into the features of the Varicam. I'd be interested to know his summing up of DVCproHD 1080p compared to HDCAM. Note how he also points out in a later post how there's no point comparing DVCproHD to HDV as it is an apples and oranges situation.
 
@DinosaurInc-Nothing at you or against you, my brother. At all.

@All-HDV cameras record to M2T which is the HDTV standard, right now. This means that what is shot on an FX1 could go directly to the satellite without a recompress, right off of the camera. Whether we like it or not, you can not do this with DVCProHD. You must compress to M2T to broadcast HDTV. This puts the Sony/JVC/Sharp/Canon a leg up in the broadcast world (not movies).

DVCProHD lends itself well to movies and HDV lends itself completely to broadcast (HDTV).
Keep that in mind if you want to make something for the small screen HDTV. For the silver screen HDV will not hold up to projection. The artifacts will be seen.
 
The choice of format must lie with each individual and their needs. Personally, I am chosing a camera to make fictional narratives. The comparision for me is not DVCPRO-HD vs HDV, but, every video format known vs 35mm film. 35mm is still the gold standard for fictional narrative, even on TV. Because of the budgets I must work with now, I have to use video. The choice for me was the DVX-100, a revolutionary camera, IMO. Now Panasonic has raised the bar and I can't wait 'til this Fall.
I do not think that HDV will meet my needs. That does not mean that it is bad.
 
"HDV's file format is M2T which is HDTV. Anything shot on an HDV camera is broadcast ready unless it needs editing."

What doesn't need to be edited?
Who airs raw footage?
 
Simon Wyndham said:
Oliver, you missed the point. You don't actually shoot 1:1 ratio. But the fact that you can delete a no-good take instead of having it take up valuable space on the card means that at the end of the day you end up with a card full of usable takes instead of flubs. In other words you have a 2:1 or 1:1 shooting ratio purely by the fact you can delete no-goods. I do this all the time with xdcam, and its reeeeally nice to be able to do.

No no, I got the point. But I just can't see you ending up with a 1:1 ratio. But that's just me being a pain in the arse. For most jobs you are right. So actually there's just the eventshooters that need another solution since they want to keep rolling uninterupted. They'll have to go firestore untill the big p2 cards arrive, but that shouldn't be a problem either. And when the 128gb p2's are there Panna should sell them for around 1500$ and Sony will seize to exist. :evil:
Just kidding off course.
 
Pinnacle and Avid (just now) can edit HDV in the raw form. That means HDV straight off of the camera can be diced and sent up to the satellite without a recompress. This is a tremendous advantage because the HDV remains in tact straight off of the camera. If the TV show was shot well then there only needs to be straight cuts and fades added and it's ready to broadcast.
 
Believe me, I do like the idea of P2 but not in it's current form. I like good old fashion DV tapes that can record 60 minutes of footage, when done you take it out, put away and drop in another. I want to pay $100 for 1 hour on a P2 card. That's the price I'm willing to pay as long as tape is around as a competitor to P2. Can't afford XD cam but it sounds like a good idea, but the disk are pretty high for it too. Although I did see XD Cam 24p in action and it was hot. I don't say that much about Sony so you know I had to be impressed. I think Pana dropped the ball not making the camera able to shoot on tape and P2. It's like a Sony thing, where they try to force their technology down you throat. If you're going to make a multi-format camera let me be the judge of what format I want to shoot on. And Pana knows more options are always better. But then again it all depends on how much money I have and if a compatable four hour Firestore comes out for the HVX.
 
i know what your saying , but ..thats the thing though. in order to get DVCPRO HD quality on tape you need to use DVCPRO HD tapes. lets forget about HDV and HDVPRO being on mini DV tapes because the quality is not the same.. so the bottom line is if you wanted DVCPRO HD on tape youd have to pay apx 70.00+ per tape plus youd want to buy the deck to ingest and output to so your not wearing the camera heads if it had a transport. ..and the camera would cost more than 2x as much and be quite bigger than it is now. once you start looking at how much it costs to shoot DVCPRO HD on tape .. youll see that P2 is a much cheaper solution. you could buy plenty of P2 cards for just the price of the DVCPRO HD deck alone. .. or for the extra money the camera would cost to have a DVCPRO HD tape transport. then consider that they are a one time purchase vs spending 70.00 for every DVCPRO HD tape.

so if your comparing the only realistic way of getting high quality DVCPRO HD on tape vs P2.. the P2 solution cost far far less. especially in the long run.

if you want to compare it to HDV costs .. youd have to compare it to HDV quality .. and then youll see its still a case of - you get what you pay for.

P2 really is the best solution ..even if it costs alot up front.. it costs WAY LESS up front than having pani put a DVCPRO HD deck in the cam , and you having to by a DVCPRO HD deck.. and cost WAAAAAYYYY less i the long run as well. you cannot have your cake and eat it too. if you dont want all the coomprimises of HDV with audio and its image and artifacts and comression and editing and such .. then you need to pay for a professional format like DVCPRO HD ..and P2 allows us to do that when without it there would be no way.. wed be stuck in the independent world where we could only wish we had what the HVX now offers. being able to shoot with one single P2 card and dump and endless amount to HDD offthe camera means that your cost per hour is really unlimited. you could always go with a direct to disk solution as well. if pana makes the HVX able to write DTD then your set.. if not you can buy a firestore..
 
stephenInoe, I'm afraid things don't work as simply as that.

OliverM, yes, P2 will not be any good for people who need to keep rolling for any length of time. I'm not convinced by the idea of hotswapping as I do not know how one can operate the camera and swap a P2 card at the same time. But for fictional storytelling P2 will be pretty good.

Nathyn, a lot is said about Sony forcing new formats. However I don't really see any difference between Sony forcing xdcam on people than Panasonic trying to force P2 on people instead. Remember that the tape mechanism in the new camera is to help the lower end make the transition. Look at the higher end P2 cameras and there's no tape mechanism in sight.
 
I have to admit,

MiniDv is so easy and cost effective. Maybe if I had started using DVCPRO first, the adjustment would be easier.

But at this point, I would slit my wrist with the inconviences of P2 tech..having to stop or getting a "Card full Warning" every 8 min would drive me crazy. 8 min = $1,700 ($212 per min - ouch)

Just cant do it...Wouldnt be prudent (in my Bush Sr voice) Not even in the name of having a pro-format.

But in a few years, this may be a viable option with the specs Nathan mentioned (60 min for $100 bucks - recording on whatever that may be out at the time)
 
Rosestar said:
The choice of format must lie with each individual and their needs. Personally, I am chosing a camera to make fictional narratives. The comparision for me is not DVCPRO-HD vs HDV, but, every video format known vs 35mm film. 35mm is still the gold standard for fictional narrative, even on TV. Because of the budgets I must work with now, I have to use video. The choice for me was the DVX-100, a revolutionary camera, IMO. Now Panasonic has raised the bar and I can't wait 'til this Fall.
I do not think that HDV will meet my needs. That does not mean that it is bad.

Exactly. Looks like you and I are in the same boat.
For now , with an independents budget (owning the gear) it looks like the HVX
will be best for film transfer... although, there's still a lot picture information to be examined.

One thing I keep reading in these kind of debates is the phrase "for the average viewer/observer"... Broadcast wise this may make sense , however, Movie-wise this perplexes me because the examples they sight are people who are either watching a big screen or a movie dvd -

If they said I have a friend who watches DVD's made from HDV vs. DVC PROHD origination, and he/she can't tell the difference - then o.k, fair point. Or, similarly, if they saw a film in the theatre and they said they couldn't discern the difference (film made with HDV/DVC PROHD) - fair point.

So the phrase "average viewer/observer" phrase in the non- broadcast , theatre/dvd
paradigm doesn't really hold up. Unless there are HDV/DVCPRO movies floating around the local multiplexes and vid rental stores I'm unaware of. If there are any readily available that haven't gone through $100K- 200K in post-pro enhancements, please let me know.

So my concern is the same as Rose's - fictional narrative , for film transfer, predicated on a workflow that originates the highest quality possible for my budget.

Panasonic has proven with the DVX that they're pretty damn reliable. I might take a little inconvience for that kind of peace of mind.
 
Editor321 said:
But at this point, I would slit my wrist with the inconviences of P2 tech..having to stop or getting a "Card full Warning" every 8 min would drive me crazy. 8 min = $1,700 ($212 per min - ouch)

Just cant do it...Wouldnt be prudent

You're doing your own math here...

DVCProHD tape costs roughly $2 per minute.

So you'd need to fill your 8GB P2 card 106 times with 1080 footage to get the same value as tape. Shoot around 14 hours of 1080 footage and you've nullified your media expenses for the remainder of your shooting days.

Or shoot 720p, and then the math is even better. At 20 minutes for 8GB, you're at $85 per minute. You'd need to fill the card 43 times to equalize your tapes costs...

And these prices will be dropping every couple of months... more than can be said of the price of tape, which, in my experience, never seems to drop.

You look at price per minute of P2 and you treat it as a one-time use format like tape, yeah, it seems out of hand. But it isn't a one-time use format.
 
@Simon-I think we all know it doesn't work as easy as that, but that's not the point. The point is that M2T is HDTV's format which also is the format for the FX1 and the HDV spec.

good day...
 
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