Love Panna but not down with P2

Don't totally agree Simon.
The XDCAM discs are FAR cheaper then P2 for a start. But then P2's have no moving parts so they'll last longer. Ah, choices...
No seriously, seems a bit tight filming 1:1.
Hmz, actually all this would'nt be a problem if instead of 8gig the cards would be 32 or 64. And for the same price off course :)
 
I think it's funny how Sony has a, "Seven Year Powertrain Warranty with XDCAM"
You know, Daiwoo , Kia, and Hyundai offer the same thing. I think warranties exist for
products with unknown repair history --or-- a tendancy towards unreliability. Either way,
it's figured in to the price of a XDCAM. You're paying for it the first time around.
 
ShannonRawls said:
Because HDV is better then DV, period!
.. I'll tell you this... What would you rather do....

1. Shoot with a HD100 in Pro HD and give Barry Green $3,700 to be your cinematographer for the weekend while you concetrate on Directing your actors...

...

- Shannon W. Rawls
Click to expand...

I'd go with Barry!

Not only that, but we could start shooting in August.

So... for what I'm seeing in this forum (reading between, beneath, and behind the lines), go with the HD100, start making money this summer, then buy whatever the new adance is next year (Canon XL3??). ;-)

--Ralph
 
ShannonRawls said:
Because HDV is better then DV, period!
Click to expand...

You said this in response to a comparison of HDV and DVCPRO-HD, not HDV and DV.

What does an XL1 have to do with DVCPRO-HD?

I dunno, I'll take the 4:2:2 colorspace and single-frame compression over 4:2:0 and long GOPs any day . . .
 
It doesn't matter if P2 cards cost $1.98, they are impractical for many workflows. Most people who shoot in the field, run & gun, or verite style material cannot swap out a card every 4-8 mins, and they can't travel with a laptop. I want to love this camera, but I need a HDD solution! Now is the time to keep it, in hopes it will get heard. Jan, let 'em know! Field producers want to use this camera!
 
The P2 card is most likely to go much higher in Gigs and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel in something along the lines of 25 to 50 Gig cards in the not to distant future and/or
very small Mega Gigger hard drives the size of an i-pod that sits on the cam. Either way things
are moving away from tape.
 
ShannonRawls said:
I'll tell you this... What would you rather do....

2. Shoot with an HVX and spend $3,700 on a pair of 8 gig cards and be a 1-man crew doing everything yourself

*smile*

You take your pick....i know what mine would be.

- Shannon W. Rawls
Click to expand...

I know what mine would be too, I would pull a Robert Rodriguez and do a El Mariachi style of filmmaking. I prefer working on my own projects doing everything by myself, so it's an easy choice for me. Once again, high quality HD footage, or HDV on a miniDV tape? HMMMM.

I also don't see why some people complain about the fixed lens on the HVX. You would end up spending just as much, if not more, on interchangeable lenses as you would on the P2 cards. It's so funny too, because the people that complain about the cost of high quality HD on P2 cards are the same people that don't complain about spending the same amount (if not more) money on those interchangeable lenses.

Ignorant people.
 
i think shannon was correct and we all feel the same in the gut: maybe the DVCPro is superior and yes the P2 is workable, but seriusly it is a LOT of money at the moment and a lot of hassle either way.
yes it is revolutionary and yes it lives forever, but you need to back it up somehow (which will cost again) and you will need to empty it every time you shoot. you can´t just label it and wait until the shooting is over. you need a way to transfer it to another medium.
now i am all for it (i love digital photography for exactly these reasons; but only use it private!) and i am sure we will be happy with P2 or something similar. BUT not for this price. as someone said: if it 32GB, ok. or if it costs a few bucks. but the current prices are way off. WAY OFF. i expect them to come down dramatically until december, but still.....you won´t order them in loads......
i only hope a firestore-sort-of product will be around soon that can be recorded to. then all our discussions are meaningless and we can be happy campers with 500GB of space for HD.
 
Has the footage been compared yet? Or, are we assuming?

I think Shannon point is, if guys were getting deals shooting with DV. How are we (all of sudden) going to diss HDV (pro-hd) just because some other format is assumed to look better.

We dont know...One thing we do know NOW is that P2 is expensive and cant shoot more than 10 min. without downtime. Big KNOWN set-backs.

Some people make decisions on known factors. Others give creedance to expected provisions that are not currently provided.
 
Good point, we do need to see the footage. But another *known* fact is that the HDV datastream is capped at 25 Mbs and DVCPROHD has an upper limit of 100 Mbs in the HVX200. So a lot of us have made a decision to go with a higher quality format when we adopt an HD workflow. But everyone's needs are different, so HDV may be fine for some people. It's virtually certain there will be a HDD recording option for the HVX200. Whether it will be a Firestore-like device and/or direct recording to off-the-shelf HDDs is as yet unknown. So there are still a lot of unknowns at this point. All the more reason to wait until the HVX200 is released, so you can evaluate each camera. Obviously if you need a low-end HD solution today, the cameras are already available.



Editor321 said:
Has the footage been compared yet? Or, are we assuming?

I think Shannon point is, if guys were getting deals shooting with DV. How are we (all of sudden) going to diss HDV just because some other format is assumed to look better.

We dont know...One thing we do know NOW is that P2 is expensive and cant shoot more than 10 min. without downtime. Big KNOWN set-backs.

Some people make decisions on known factors. Others give creedance to expected provisions that are not currently provided.
Click to expand...
 
We've not seen any footage from the HVX, because it doesn't exist yet.

But there's plenty of DVCPRO-HD footage out there. It's not a new format.

We know how well the Varicam performs. We know how well the DVX performs. We're therefore entitled to be enthusiastic about a marriage between the two, because Panasonic has already proved it knows what it's doing with both. I find it highly unlikely that they'd blow it.

It's also not just "looking better," which is in many ways subjective. There are a lot of non-speculative technical comparisons which can be made now, such as color sampling and compression. As I said, DVCPRO-HD is not new.
 
Editor321 said:
Future proofed? Cameras are like computers...outdated in 6 months. The HVX has about a year to shine upon release and then its a dinosaur.
Click to expand...

That's true, my two year old computer is worthless right now. I can only edit video, render taxing 3D images, and create complex scores. I should throw it in the garbage like my DVX which is also rendered useless due to the age of it.

I guess we will have a higher def in two or three years. It's unfortunate because 1080i and 720 are still being pushed.

I could of swore that a bunch of recording options, almost all resolutions and frame rates of any current technology that's currently being used and still in it's infancy would have more than a years worth of use.

Obviously I don't understand anything. I should call Robert Rodriguez and George Lucas to let them know they're using Dinosaurs and people are laughing at them. :grin:
 
ShannonRawls said:
Because HDV is better then DV, period!
Click to expand...

That's interesting. You have some good points...about DV. I was refering to the two current HD codecs on the market for us folks that's realistic. There is absolutely no way HDV is better than DVCPRO HD. Incidentally, it's pretty par for the course that if you move up in quality, you will move up in price. That's why pro's prefer the F950 or the Varicam...they're better than the Z1. I think the small amount of jump in cost vs. what we're getting in the HVX is unprecidented.

If you want to argue those two that's cool, I'm not sure I challenged the DV vs. HDV thing.
 
But look on the bright side.

John's dolly should be paid for so now that $37 will be more useful to him on his next Zombie movie.

Shannon,

If you can get Vin Diesel, why aren't you out shooting?

I'd have his footage in the can before he changes his mind.
 
Considering I shot my first feature for under $1000 (not that I'd ever want to do that again) P2 cards as they are now will not be a viable option for me until one can store 1 hour of info at and cost about $200 a pop. Or 4 hours at a grand for one card, then I'd buy two or three. Until then tape is my friend and hasn't let me down. The new Firestore is the best idea I've seen and can't imagine why Pana's camera wouldn't work with it.

As for shooting cheap my secret is...
...stay the hell out of LA. From what I hear out there everyone's competing for the same buck and the prices for silly things are super high. Here in good old Chi-town we shoot run and gun. That JVC may make that hard but the Pana, at the state it's in now, wouldn't be an option. I'm not even seriously looking at HD or HDV for a while now because I don't have the cash to upgrade my system anyway. But I'd love to have a camera I could move into future with, but luckily my love, the DVX100, isn't obsolete yet. I'm looking to shoot my next project with it.

But if I bought anything right now the JVC + Firestore is looking better for my needs. Since I'm starting to be infront of the camera versus behind it I think I'd prefer my DP to have a shoulder mounted camera anyway, less shake more bake. (Why Pana won't make a DVX100 in a DVC60 body I don't know). I will say 24p HDV is more than interesting to me though.

-Nate
 
"I should call Robert Rodriguez and George Lucas to let them know they're using Dinosaurs and people are laughing at them. "

Wow, didnt realize those guys were using HVX's. And if you can call them that easy, you should be ordering the F950 with no budgetary concerns. :thumbsup:
 
.. i still dont get why people think P2 is some sort of weakness. it is the best part of the whole straight to file recording system.

considering that we know that YOU CAN just dump your files off the P2 to an off the shelf firewire or usb2.0 drive in between takes i dont see why anyone doing narrative or dramatic productions would be limited by the P2 at all. right now till the cards get even bigger, that gives you an 8 min take minimum using the highest data rate you can. who the heck shoots anywhere near for 8 min straight for dramatic work? (and dont patronize me with some obscure film that you saw where they did it all in one take.. lets be real here people) even if we cant record direct to off the shelf HDD. the direct dump to off the shelf HDD is a VERY redeeming factor. or direct record to laptop.. on and on.. ect.

I think some people cant sem to quite wrap their heads around the idea of the actuall workflow that one would use with P2 despite the many many many times its been discussed.

let me just reitterate though that P2 IS NOT a weakness. nor is it shortsighted.. its a little far sighted right now for a FEW applications, but given the fact that people WILL have some sort of direct to HDD available wether that be firestore type or off the shelf(PLEASE JAN .. PLEASE) till a year or so when P2 is larger.. the workflow is solid regardless. and you cant complain about the cost of the camera with needed accessories.. if it so happens that you cant afford it , it doesnt mean it costs too much .. it simply means you do not have enough. the price is VERY VERY fair for what you would be getting.

bah.. anyway .. nuff said on my rant.
 
I think that's the right attitude. I've seen films shoot in DV that you would know unless they tolded you. In terms of DVCPRO-HD vs HDV, the deal is that maybe 5% of people out there own HD sets. It looks like they have restart rehashing the blue-ray/hd-dvd deal, so its going to be a while. The media is going to be expensive, remember $40 for a singe DVD-R? These delivery medias are going to depend on the codecs people dislike: mpeg2 and mpeg4(which is pretty nice actually) What ever quality you had, just got dithered down. Higher data will make it easier to do somethings in post, but they still be done with less data.

BTW New York is the only place to shoot indi ;)
 
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