Looking for some serious advice.

D

Despin

Member
Hey there.

Okay.. Bit of a ramble.

I'm a filmmaker from Manchester England who's been having fun writing and making short films on video and DV for a few years now. I've been having a great time and I think the film filmmaking is slowly but surely getting better. I feel like it may be time to take the "next step" We have several low/no budget feature scripts I'm getting to the point of being really happy with that all make use of everything I have easy access to and have plenty of other ideas stewing in my head.

So here's the thing.

I've been reading this forum for a while now and I'm slowly but surely falling head over heels in love with everything Ive seen about the HVX200... And I think I want to make the jump.

One problem though... Money. It's an expensive piece of equipment and I'm far from rich.. I'm thinking of spending about 5 grand up front. About half of that would have to be from a bank loan or credit cards.

Now we shoot pretty loose, naturalistic style that and have a hand held style that's worked well and that I've been happy with on the dvx. But I would also eventually like to get stuck into playing around with a more, controlled stylistic approach in the future. And I think this camera may have the things that I need to build upon.

I've been looking at the www.creativevideo.co.uk website and they have the HXV200 along with 2 16gb p2 cards and a few other bits for about..... GULP... £4,800...

with a couple of extra batteries I've already spent the 5 grand.

Now right off the bat, understand that I'm not considering trying to shoot a feature with this thing. I'm not ready and in no rush. I'd be more than happy to "play" around with it for 6-12 months making short films and learning the camera inside out before moving towards anything longform.

So here's what I'm here to ask.. Should I even bother? Is that the deal I should get? Are prices even close to moving over the next year? Be it camera or P2 storage? Would it be stupid for me to buy this camera now and not get real use out of it?

I have system based around premiere pro 2 that I've been using for a few years now. It's an Advent Machine. 3.2 Pentium 4, gig of ram, and some geforce 256mb graphics card that's always served me well with good old DV. But I assume will wither and die under the weight of HDV footage.

Now If I was to get the HVX I could maybe get a new system later down the line. But in the mean time would it be of any use at all with HDV? Maybe with the use of RAYLIGHT?

Then there would be the shooting. I have an old laptop. I've only really used for writing. It's got like a celeron 1.5 processor, half a gig of ram 40 gig hard drive... It does have a PCMCIA slot.. Would that be of any use for dumping the footage to for then then backing up to external HD's?

Would that limited set up be at all capable of editing 720p for simple 5-10 minutes short films? The pc I mean. Not the laptop.

Now if all of the above equipment is useless... Would there be ANY point in buying the camera as an SD device for the next 6 months or so until I can start upgrading the machines around it?

Like in my head I feel that shooting with the HVX very limited hdv for testing and learning while going on shooting short films in SD mode on dv would be helpful in getting to know the camera as well as I can while all the time adding to my kit, be in in the post department or things for the camera.

So in maybe a years time when I can afford to edit and make full use of the camera (for my needs) I will know the camera a lot better than if Ijust picked it up.

Or would I I be better of staying with the DVX for a year until I can afford the HVX and a decent laptop capable of simple editing?

I know this is a long rambling post.. But I feel so excited about what this camera is and what I may one day be able to do with it... I just felt like I had to asked you guys some questions. Get some feedback.

I just ordered Barry's bootcamp bundle in order to really look into the camera before making any moves is that going to be worth my while?

Hope you guys can help me out.

Cheers.

Despin out.
 
Long thread, but the first thing that jumps out is you're trying to buy a grey market cam.

Buy from a Panasonic Authorized UK dealer.

That price isn't real.
 
The laptop would be plenty fine for offloading cards, and the desktop should certainly handle a 720/25pN edit, using Raylight.
 
Wotcher, Despin
Chris here, Brit but now in Los Angeles. Glad to hear from a Mancunian DV head!
Okay.
Take this all with a grain of salt, but your best bet would be to save your pennies for the mo.
Here's how i see it.


I've been in the same boat as you have, bar the fact that I make my living doing this as well. In other words, I've been shooting and editing other people's films as a day job, and then come home and do pretty much the same as you have been doing.

Now, the thing that gives me greatest pause to ponder is not the camera - although we all have to agree that the HVX is a beauty well worth pondering over - but the rest of your kit.

Around three months ago I had to upgrage my systems because it's Los Angeles and people here are yelling HD louder and louder every day. So I sold my two DVXs with the firm intention of getting an HVX.

And then I started looking at the rest of the kit. Well, not exactly in that order, though, it went more like - I had a client who had an HDV TV show to edit and so I took it on and plugged it all into my Pentium kit ... and the stuff wouldn't play right, no matter what I did. I upgraded this and that, bought a load more RAM, SATA hard disk drives, you name it.

Stuttering picture, renders that took forever.

So I switched everything over to my Mirror Door G4 Mac, OSX.4, FCP 5.1.3 newly installed, 2GB RAM... still stuttering, long renders... much rending of hair and gnashing of teeth...

So then I sold that G4 and bought a duo G5, 3.5GB RAM, dual cinema displays, GRAID and LaCie D2 extremes, moved the OSX and FCP over... and finally, the thing actually played for long enough for me to finish editing it.

And guess what? That was only in HDV. I must have spent around three grand US (around half that in sterling) on upgrading the post kit just to get to HDV.

Since then I've got a Kona card and an external SATA setup, so now I can take on around 8TB total drive capacity and SDi in and output....

Although I've not actually output anything in HD format yet, save back to the HDV camcorder to watch on my new ($800) HD TV set...

Most of the work I'm doing is indeed originated on HD and bumped up to whatever, but they all, without exception, have asked for normal SD (NTSC) DVD's for their own viewing purposes, because nobody's got either the HD-DVD or the Blu-Ray setups to watch the blessed things even if I did lay out the extra $500 for the burner.

So now I get around to thinking seriously about my HVX, right? (back to the point). I've done this gear update, luckily for me the client paid for most of it, so now I'm in a peachy position to go for it, right?

When I start thinking to myself, self, you just almost killed yourself and your finances just on post. And HDV to boot. Now do yourself a favor and step through the workflow with a P2 system. And think drive capacity and processing power too...

Now I don't know what kind of films you make. Are you happy with the images your DVX gives you? Do you have an anamorphic adaptor? What's your audio setup like?

Me, I have FCP with a load of bells and whistles on board - film clutter, Magic Bullet, Video Film Toolkit, all that stuff. I can upconvert, side convert, deinterlace, reinterlace, and generally make the pictures stand upside down, inside out, and beg.

And it all takes massive amounts of processing power, speed, memory and time.

So - HD, starting from the back end. The telly first, speakers, then the playback device. I have the first lot, but now am thinking of a Digital VHS deck while the HD DVD battle is still raging. Around a hundred and fifty quid for a used deck, all the HD formats you can eat, firewire in and out, easy solution.

Next your main computer with at least a duo, preferably a quad or an 8-up CPU with around 2GB RAM per CPU core. Obviously your software kit, and your image processing kit. Your screens, minimum 23" for 1920x1080 proper HD. Your hard drive setup.

Then finally your location ingest system and your P2 card recycle system.

Oh, and then your camera.

Now I'm in Los Angeles. In America. HVXs here are not yet as plentiful as confetti, but they're a lot less money than in UK/Europe. I can afford one now. And I have most of the back end kit to finish my shows on.

But, well, I went for a smaller HDV camera, for the moment. Half the price. Meant I could also build my own (pretty decent) 35mm lens adaptor, have a 15mm rod system, ND grads, circ polariser, wireless lavs, on board LED lighting setup, pro level mic preamps, all for less than the cost of a used HVX.

Now I shoot drama, mainly. People stabbing at each other with frowns, not swords. Not a lot of running around, action, that kind of thing (I started with Merchant Ivory, goes to show, dunnit? :)

HDV holds together well enough for my purposes. The 35mm DOF adaptor has made more difference than anything else, save maybe the mic pres. And the onboard lights. And...

But in the end it's the entire kit that comes into play, not just the camera alone. So I made my choice, and saw to it that the films that come out of my shop look the best that they possibly can, given my financial circumstances.

A major one being that I couldn't say to myself that it was okay to give my son or some other casual helper the job of reloading the P2s every time. Or, indeed, that there was going to be another person on the camera crew, every time. Or that I could afford the three or four 8GB P2s, the laptop I don't have, and/or the portable HDDs to get around that problem.

Now I was able to get a step closer to the bleeding edge of technology without losing too much in the process. But don't forget, I have clients who pay me to do this.

In the meantime, as I was doing the conversion and tinkering with my new boxes, my flimmaker mate just knocked out another killer film with his DVX. Anamorphic. Black and white, impeccable lighting. His actors are starting to get stuck in there, finally.

And me? I have this bunch of neat gear... LOL!!!

No, I'll catch up soon enough. If all this kit holds together.
 
I'd be careful taking a loan on something that won't soon bring you money; if you can afford it great, but hoc?

That said HVX is the best cam out there for under 12k for almost every use. With Hydra coming it'll be upgradable to swim with the really big fish... or sharks depending on if you live in L.A. or not. But what am I saying... pounds... you're in England. Eh, why waste a bad punchline, though?

Seriously, wait until the cost is not a serious burden. More filmmakers have gone broke by bad credit card habits than made millions. Sorry to be preachy, but my M.O.T. heritage makes me genetically predisposed to think about money.
 
If you dont have any real projects soon you may buy it with only one card and buy more cards later as by the time you need them higher capacity cards will be out(32gig) and prices are likely to be cheaper then now. With the money you save you could probably make urself a cheap core2duo editing rig but i would do that after trying it on your present pc. You could always download the raylight demo and if im not mistaking they have a dvcprohd file you cannot dowload as well to test it. Editing with raylight on pc is really nice and that means you wont need to change your editing habits.
As for the buying now or later this cam will definitly make you happy and using it is certainly very motivating creativly. The results are stunning. Thats worth something to me. I guess it all depends on how much of a burden the dept will be to you.

Good luck with your decision!
 
few things. 1. the hvx doesnt shoot HDV, it shoots dvcproHD. HDV blows! and 3-CHIP HDV cameras are not [extraordinarilly] less expensive than the hvx
2. the HVX is pretty weak as a SD camera (purely my opinion), if you cant afford to use its HD functionality just stay with your DVX. 3. as last i was told, premier pro doesnt support dvcproHD (that may have changed by now?) 4. i capture and do basic edits of dvcproHD footage from p2 cards to my old mac 17" powerbook G4, 1.0ghz using final cut pro in the filed (BTW, using only the internal boot drive) and it works very smoothly - never misses a beat! and you can pick up that machine for well under a grand. 5. the prices of the hvx camera arent going to drop much in the forseeable future. id say that $4500 ish is probably the lowest price youre going to find from an authorised dealer. but the p2 card prices HAVE dropped quite a bit in the last year - nearly 50%.

i wouldnt advise taking a loan unless you have work on your schedule that will pay for it within the year. that can be a very dangerous path!
 
Hey there.

Thanks for the replies guys. So creativevideo is offering a "grey market" package. Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations for places to buy the camera in UK?

Reading through the thread, I'm still not 100% sure what to do either way yet. One thing I should clear up. I don't own the DVX100. I've just had access to it in the past. I've never owned my own camera. So as you can imagine. The idea of owning the HVX if only to use for SD shooting for several months does have some appeal for me.

I was thinking of maybe buying the hvx with NO P2 cards. Just shooting SD for a while until P2 comes down or until I think I'm ready for HD... But saying that... I don;t think I could have the camera sitting around without at least testing out the HD capabilities... So I don;t know.. Maybe try and hunt down so smaller, cheaper p2 cards..

Like I mentioned earlier. I've ordered the HVX BOOTCAMP dvds and plan of watching them and hoping they also help me make my mind up.

In the mean time, anyone else got any thoughts on the subject? Any of you guys buy the camera with such a minimal set up?

Anyone here in the UK? Where did you get your camera from? Know any good sites? Or stores in the northwest?

Thanks again for the replies guys.

Despin out.
 
www.creativevideo.co.uk

They are absolutely authorised Panasonic dealers.

http://panasonic-broadcast.de/index.cfm?uuid=BAB9FF09CD1C8D31C71952C334EEDA91&countryAction=27&startRow=11&Region=999&sort=1

Sorry for the long link - but that shows the page on which they are listed as part of Panasonic's European network.

I'll also add my tuppence worth -

In my opinion the HVX is great in SD.
Buy one card now - even a small one and get more later if you need them, or rent some if you have a job on.
Premiere Pro with Raylight is great...
 
creativevideo are totally cool! they are a very good supplier. I recenty bought some Dedos from them and received excellent personal service.

David S, on what basis are you suggesting this would be a greymarket camera????

For crying out there is a banner on their front page advising/warning about greys!
 
In the unlikely event that you decide to go for a gray market one certainly don't pay 5000 Pounds for it! You can have a gray market PAL HVX for around 4650 Euros (that would be +/-3183 Pounds)

I agree on the loan thing, don't get a loan just to buy a camera that you don't really need immediatly. Buy it when you have the money. (Unless, of course, your are certain you'll make the money back within the year)

You could decide to buy without P2 for the moment, and should you want to try HD out in the meantime you could rent a couple of P2 cards for a day or two.

Good luck on deciding
 
Last edited:
David S. said:
Long thread, but the first thing that jumps out is you're trying to buy a grey market cam.

Buy from a Panasonic Authorized UK dealer.

That price isn't real.
Click to expand...


Creativevideo are a legit dealer.
Drew
 
Despin said:
Hey there.

Thanks for the replies guys. So creativevideo is offering a "grey market" package. Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations for places to buy the camera in UK?
Click to expand...
This should not be a grey market camera. Don't let these comments put you off. They are confusing it with euros.

I bought from them and so have many pro's i know.

Drew
 
Despin
Please think again about what you're doing here.

Push come to shove, are you one of those guys who love owning a beautiful camera and using it well? Or are you one of those who, in the end, love the end product (the movies themselves) more than the hardware that produces them?

Or, put another way - if you were a Leica man, would you still be using your trusty old M2 or M3 with real 35mm film? Or whatever camera came to hand, new, old be damned? Or would you have switched to the latest digital M8 as soon as it came out?

You'd be making movies either way. Some filmmakers own their own cameras. Others have always rented or borrowed the equipment that suits their needs at the time they're making their shows. Both are true filmmakers, of course, and in the end neither is necessarily better off.

I'll share some advice I was given when I bought my first 35mm movie camera, used, from a pretty famous DP. He asked me to consider this expensive purchase in the light of money (resource) conversion into equipment. He said that the same money, put into a production, would yield a pretty decent little film. So if I bought this camera with resource X, I'd need more money (resource Y) to actually make a movie with that camera.
Now, if I stayed with the camera that my buddy had, I would have either resource X to spend, all on a production and then resource Y on my next film, or I could save it up and spend X and Y on a single production.
Either way, I'd have more resource invested into the end product rather than on the machinery to make it happen.

Now, the fallacy here is that if you spend more resource on a film that it's necessarily a better film. That's simply not true. But if you made two films with honest intent (i.e. your best efforts) would the second film turn out better than your first? Again, hard to tell, but my answer, especially when you haven't made a lot of films is probably yes.

What's your end goal here? To gain employment as a film producer? To enter festivals and get noticed? To "move up" in the indie film community? Or simply to produce, continually, no matter if the quality goes up or down, or if anything sells or not?

I'd say that only in the last case would the purchase of a camera would be necessary or even definitely justifiable, given that you already have free access to one.
 
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