Looking for opinions for “new” camera gear

N

Newsguy

Well-known member
This is sort of a different scenario than the usual “what’s the hot new camera.” I’m a staffer at a national network and we are budgeting for new gear for early 2020. I put new in parenthesis because the best broadcast equipment available really isn’t new. We are upgrading from our 2/3” Sony cameras to Super 35 cameras, but the plan is to finally replace the 2/3” cams for good. I’ve personally been shooting with S35 for years and I know that there are many differences between the formats, the most glaring being the lack of true S35 broadcast style lenses in the market.

If price were not an issue (it probably will be but we would like to shoot high to test the budget) what S35 ENG/Doco style camera would you get? We’re strictly solo shooters in various run and gun situations. The lens we are going for is the Canon 17-120 no matter what camera we get. Here are some of the cameras I know personally and am considering:

Arri Amira: Best ergonomics, basically looks and feels like a 2/3” camera on the shoulder. Fantastic slow motion with no compromises. Built like a tank which is a big plus for the work we do. Heavy with the lens combo.

F55: Probably the most common camera I see in the field. I love the image and the fact that it’s true 4k, but even with the ENG rig on it it’s not the best ergonomically and still requires some extras to make it a one man band camera. Also bombproof

Vaticam LT: Rarely see this one in the field. Beautiful images and lots of dynamic range. Also requires some extras to make it feel good ergonomically. Also very rugged. Lack of physical audio dials is rough for one man band work. Deceptively heavy with this lens combo.

I know there are cheaper options but this is sort of a “start high” list. Note that in all 3 the toughness and ergonomics are mentioned. I understand that at this stage of the game each of these cameras is going to look fantastic, but in 5-6 years when we need to replace them, they still need to be in 1 piece after the beatings they will take.

All suggestions are welcomed. Also, we can’t wait for x trade show or x camera coming down the line. It’s a late 2019 or early 2020 thing that’s all about when budget is available and all that corporate jazz.
 
Maybe throw the C700 or C700 FF in the mix too...

But everything everywhere seems to be an AMIRA on the shoulder...just so popular.

You could also consider a C200 or C300 Mark II, FS7 or F5, or EVA1 on the lower end. (You're probably not interested in a Blackmagic.)

And if I were seriously considering an AMIRA, I would also consider a RED too even though you would of course have to build it up but you'd have to make a lot of these cameras work on the shoulder.
 
NorBro said:
Maybe throw the C700 or C700 FF in the mix too...

But everything everywhere seems to be an AMIRA on the shoulder...just so popular.

[You could also consider a C200 or C300 Mark II, FS7 or F5, or EVA1 on the lower end.]
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Didn’t even think of the C700. I will research more about it, I know it’s just not popular because it was so late in the game, but so was the Vatican LT and I think it’s a hidden gem. We actually have FS7 mk ii’s as “Profile” cameras since we don’t have the lens to use them as ENG cameras, and we use them pretty often.
 
I updated my post while you were typing...but definitely check the Canons out.

They have amazing features on paper, but just way overpriced in today's world for their position in the market.

Anyone with $30K+ will most likely be considering an ARRI or RED.
 
Cameras like the Amira and C700 pull some power.

I think the C700 is rated at 50-60wh, which is pretty power hungry. That puts it in the Red DSMC1 territory. That means heavier batteries and more batteries. The heft and power draw is similar to the Amira.

In contrast the F55 pulls 27wh, and can go all day sipping and is about 4lbs lighter (although, you are talking of adding the eng mod)

Amira has some great features and image, but a true 4K s35 sensor can double the focal length of your lens with a 2K crop.


Anway, looking 5years ahead, i feel your pain. But seems like you’ve got it covered.
 
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DLD said:
Amira is the reigning queen but --- do you ever need auto-focus?
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I think we got the classic “give me feedback on this type of camera” rather than “these are the situations i am in, what cameras do that?” It’s one thing to say eng for broadcast, another to say s35 for eng/doco replacing 2/3”. Just so many questions. The ENG work i did, and if i was given a T3-T4 lens, i’d end up wanting go low noise high iso performance from the camera. F55 and Amira start to slouch there.

AF is incredibly useful for solo ops in ENG situations. Would that mean the Canon C cameras jump towards the top of the list?
 
The specific work is for sports, but like all ENG work it varies from profiles, to live shots, to covering live events etc. I agree that autofocus is useful for what we do, but let’s be totally honest, what does an old school ENG op say when you bring up autofocus? If I were shopping for me personally it would be a selling point because the canon af is like magic, but pitching that feature to the network guys gets laughs and scoffs. I would personally use it when tracking a player on the field or a reporter who wants to walk n talk.

About the battery draw, that’s a good point that the 55 isn’t as power hungry as the Amira. Weight isn’t a deciding factor because by the time you make any of these cameras proper shoulder mounts they all end up being pigs.
 
I guess I'll be the one to say this..... As much as I like the look of S35mm cameras, there is no way in hell that I would want to be the photog having to deal with one in an ENG scenario, period!

To the OP, are you an independent broadcast station or part of a group?

If the later, use your combined buying power to get super great deals on real top quality modern ENG gear.
 
Do you really need that quality for NEWS? HD or 4K? Having worked in NEWS, and still around NEWS a lot, as well as other broadcast needs, do you really need an Amira, C700, F55, etc?

Yes I know the DVCPro cameras of yesteryear were $20,000 each so not that far away if you stay with the same level of performance... But the lens selection is going to be an issue.
 
As someone in a very similar working situation to the OP(network, sports, news, high-end, live, ENG, etc) I say it’s either Amira or F55. NBC went from F900R’s to F55/17-120 a few years ago. Lots of trucks handling sports went to F55’s and Amira’s for the ENG cameras. In my world, you see lots of F55’s and Amira’s. A few of my friends work for the NFL team here, and production just bought like three Amira’s(moved from Sony XDCAM). I have an F55/17-120, BUT for most of my real ENG, I still shoot with my P2 VariCam, because it’s the better camera/lens options to do ENG. The Amira still doesn’t touch it for ergo’s and operator comfort. All of the s35 cameras are a compromise, but unfortunately it’s something I have to suck up and deal with, because of client demand.

I wouldn’t consider the LT. It’s a s*%tty design from an op’s perspective and I’ll tell anyone from Panasonic to their face. Sorry Mitch, 22 year veteran speaking here. Your guys dropped the ball. It is built like you would expect(like a tank), but the guys in Japan for some reason decided to copy the old industrial heads from the 80’s/90’s instead of building on the excellent design of the 2700. I guess all the manufacturers were scared and thought if their “Cine” cameras looked like their “ENG” cameras no one would buy them.

RED’s and C series cameras shouldn’t even be suggested for what the OP needs. I’ve been living what he’s doing(or close to it, anyway) for over 20 years.
 
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Thank for chiming in. I know from your posts that you do very similar work to what we do. What the network would like is for us to kind of fuse the standard broadcast camera but also be able to use it for specials/profiles/promos. That’s the deal with not wanting to go 2/3” for this next fleet of cameras. If we had the money I’d love to have those newer 4K Sony 2/3” cams and just use smaller cams for specials etc, but on top of the fact that they wouldn’t go for it, it’s a lot of stuff to take on planes and we're always on planes. I know it’s a compromise for sure because I’ve used the FS7 in the field a lot lately and the ease and practicality are not the same. Everything on the 800 is a button switch away, and muscle memory can’t be downplayed, people doing this for decades just want things to be where they are. Literally just not being able to press rec right on the lens drives me mad. Also, not having an extender and having to dig through a menu to crop in/out is hair pulling frustration. And where are the C clips to strap these cameras on my shoulder? Walking everywhere with these rigged up cams and having to hold them from the handle is killing my arms.

On the flip side, the images really are top notch. Just the difference in dynamic range for something like an outdoor sunny stand up makes a huge difference. Not seeing all of the background clipped is game changing, and not having to blast the talent with light all the time is nice for them as well. Same with slow motion stuff, for sports especially, it’s nice that when you only get a limited time to shoot practice, you can shoot half at a high frame rate and essentially extend the time they’re giving you to shoot.
 
The NFL went with Amiras upon the camera release in the "We want this. Here's the check. How soon can you bring them over?' mode. And it works fine for the interviews and the narratives also.

As to the auto focus, I'd recommend, at least, testing it. Newer models have a better hit rate than most focus pullers.
 
Newsguy said:
The specific work is for sports...
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A professional owes it to themselves to test AF. Not doing so, is just macho silliness. Now, if after testing it, and you realize it isn’t a good fit, then that makes sense, but scoffing at the onset is, well laughable.

That said, you know your job and industry, and i am sure you are correct in seeing AF as a second tier priority.
 
Newsguy said:
The specific work is for sports, but like all ENG work it varies from profiles, to live shots, to covering live events etc. I agree that autofocus is useful for what we do, but let’s be totally honest, what does an old school ENG op say when you bring up autofocus?
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Then bring AF-Boosted MF or Dual Pixel Focus Guide with option to display second frame and switch between them with joystick.

In conjunction with CN20x50, CN7x17 or both CN-E18-80 and CN-E70-200.

... if I had a coin for all unsharp "mic bellow the snout" footage from old school ENG op's...
 
F55 and Amira seem to be the easy choice fall backs. I like that the Amira can take some hard light without looking harsh as quickly as other cameras. Using harder light can sometimes solve issues of light output, the Amira gives that little bit extra.

The newer builds offer better low noise performance and higher resolving images, giving that 120mm long end a little help when you can’t otherwise get a closeup. Who in sports ever complains their lens is too long? But the newer cameras seem to take a hit on ergonomics.

Just throwing a wild card out there, and i know the audio would require a breakout or mixpre3 situation, but the Sony Venice has amazing ND and is essentially versatile and future proof compared to some of the others available. Body weight is between the LT and Amira. Has the boosted 2500 iso. But yeah. The audio work around. Just seems the choices for s35 eng at the broadcast level is a pretty short list.

Maybe talk to a Sony rep and see is a Venice Audio module is in the works. Alright, i am wasting everyone’s time with this. ....but seriously. It is the most forward thinking camera of the bunch. Whether it is maleable for eng sports? I like the extension system gives some interesting options. The xperia cell phones get wireless video feeds and monitor in hdr.
 
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5years goes by pretty quickly. I suppose the choice is simple in the end, and is usually the one that comes down to: which one do you like.
 
James0b57 said:
F55 and Amira seem to be the easy choice fall backs. I like that the Amira can take some hard light without looking harsh as quickly as other cameras. Using harder light can sometimes solve issues of light output, the Amira gives that little bit extra.

The newer builds offer better low noise performance and higher resolving images, giving that 120mm long end a little help when you can’t otherwise get a closeup. Who in sports ever complains their lens is too long? But the newer cameras seem to take a hit on ergonomics.

Just throwing a wild card out there, and i know the audio would require a breakout or mixpre3 situation, but the Sony Venice has amazing ND and is essentially versatile and future proof compared to some of the others available. Body weight is between the LT and Amira. Has the boosted 2500 iso. But yeah. The audio work around. Just seems the choices for s35 eng at the broadcast level is a pretty short list.

Maybe talk to a Sony rep and see is a Venice Audio module is in the works. Alright, i am wasting everyone’s time with this. ....but seriously. It is the most forward thinking camera of the bunch. Whether it is maleable for eng sports? I like the extension system gives some interesting options. The xperia cell phones get wireless video feeds and monitor in hdr.
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The Venice is a great looking camera, and I suppose like the F55 needs to be rigged up to work for what we do. I hadn’t considered it because to be honest it just seemed way expensive, but I’ve never sat down and looked at the cost of a full setup. I will be honest, I’m sure our company would prefer to stay in the Sony ecosystem for various reasons, so that could help in pitching something so high end.
 
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