Looking for better audio. Currently using H4N

J

Joe Stas

Active member
Hi everyone,
I recently filmed a documentary for my band with a 7D and an H4N, which I synced up in post. I'm really, really pleased with the outcome of video footage but the sound let me down a bit... mainly due to my inexperience but there were other issues I had too.

Firstly, there was a lot of bassy wind noise picked up, even with a redhead in place.

Secondly, there was a lot of hiss. I had to pump the volume on quite a few clips because of low recording levels but also I suspect the pre-amps aren't that amazing.

Thirdly, I had problems juggling the H4N and the 7D as I had no camera mount. This picked up a fair bit of handling sound in places. I suspect mounting it may have led to some of the onboard camera sounds being picked up too.

Now, I'm basically looking for recommendations on how I should deal with getting better sound. Obviously I don't want to ditch my current tools if they can still be very useful (I'd rather add to them) and although I don't have a big budget, I'd consider investing to make a sizeable difference. I assume that perhaps a good mic for the H4N would be a start, but I wouldn't know which to get. Like I said, it's sound recording that really lets my productions down.

Any input much appreciated. Thanks for reading!
 
What were you recording? "Documentary for a band" could include interviews, music video-style footage, dialog, walk-and-talks, etc, and any of those could be indoors or out. What you need to do to get good sound depends on what you're trying to capture and where you're trying to capture it.

Are you recording direct into the H4n using its internal mics? If not, what other sound gear are you using?

When you said you had problems juggling the recorder and the camera because you had no mount it sounds like you were operating both from the same location. If that's the case getting a mount is not, in itself, likely to solve the problem. Microphones need to be close to the sound source and the very first thing you have to do is get the mic away from the camera and up close to the thing you're recording. If you're using the H4n's internal mics, that means the whole recorder must be up close to the source. Assuming you're recording someone talking, simply getting the recorder, hence its mics, to within 18 inches of that person's mouth will do more to improve your sound than would investing $1000 in external mics, mounts, etc yet keeping the mic at the camera position 6 or 8 feet from the speaker. "Telephotos for sound" do not exist and your statement that your levels need to be raised signifigantly in post tells me you're very likely too far away.

"...suspect the preamps aren't that amazing." What do you expect? Don't mean to sound snobbish but these little handy recorders were designed as audio sketchbooks to capture class notes, garage-band rehearsals, jam sessions, working out compositions, transcription recordings, etc. Though they're nice little recorders and when used with care are capable of good results, they're really not professional grade production sound recorders.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the reply Steve :)
When I said the pre-amps probably aren't amazing, I wasn't expecting them to be great when I bought it. I expected what I paid for and was just stating facts.

My documentary was a mix of interviews, on the fly recordings of groups of people and things like that. There was hardly any live sound recording, mainly voices.

Yeah, I realised I have to get the mic really close up. You learn a lot from mistakes and that was one that I made. I have just been using the H4N's internal mics, yes.

Thanks again!
 
Sounds like you didn't monitor while you shot. Which is a big issue. Either that or you're the drummer and you just can't gear anything but loud thuds and transient spikes.

The redhead didn't work, get better wind protection. The mics had a lot of hiss, get a better recorder. Lots of handeling noise, use a shockmount and external mic.

Some of the best band docs are all shot with a handheld and onboard mics like you did. if you want professional work hire a professional.
 
For sure, the Zoom's preamps are not what I would call stellar, But with poor microphone selection and placement skills, even the best preamps, recorders and mics, (including anything else in the recording chain) won't do much good.
 
Joe, as stated before, right now equipment is not your issue. It's technique. If I gave you 10000 worth of gear to use, I don't think your results would have been any different. You have two things not going for you right now.

1. You are unfamiliar about how to get good sound.
2. You are trying to juggle 2 positions at once. One or the other (or both) are going to suffer. Haven't seen your video, but we know audio suffered.

I get very decent sound off the H4n, and one of my projects will be on National TV next month, maybe once it airs, I will share my entire signal chain (I bet some of you will be very surprised). The editors/client are very happy with the results of the sound I recorded on set -Dialogue, Foley, Ambient. So, you really cannot blame the recorder here. It was how it was used, that is where you are getting problems. If you know technique........you can take passable gear and record beautiful audio with it. That is when the high end gear comes into play and can make even more of a difference. But until then, learn the equipment you have and learn proper audio technique.....save your money.

Use the H4n as a recording device only. Yes, the pre's are not great, and the frankly the on-board mics are fairly useless, IMO. But as a recorder, fed a good signal from a mixer and external mics, it is a very useful tool.

I find it interesting how the audio world is experiencing the same "negativity" that the video world experienced when DSLR's came into the picture. Yes, the H4n is fairly inexpensive, and yes, it has some drawbacks. But it is a decent recorder if used properly. Just like DSLR's are decent if used correctly and you know their deficiencies.

It's been said many times over and in many threads here......... if you cannot dedicate your attention on sound, just like you do with camera...........get a sound guy to help or get someone to run the camera for you. Otherwise your project is going to be negatively impacted every time and you should not be surprised when it happens. Good sound is an art form too, just like good visuals.

But you know that......now.
 
Last edited:
Thanks very much everyone.

Assuming I have bad technique, how would you recommend I learn? Obviously I learn a lot from trial and error but I'd rather not make too many mistakes in the first place.
 
You could grab some books (one of our members here Barry Green, has a book on it), or you could find a sound guy on set and watch/work with him. Me, I went to audio school in 2004 to give me the basics, and I have been honing those skills ever since. I am still learning tricks..........and I think I will never stop learning. LOL, I must have 30 books in my library about sound.

Or all of the above, or two out of three. And yes, learning audio is more about the experience over reading books. The book will tell you the technique, but until you actually try it and get experience doing it, it doesn't help. It's like have a toolbox with a bunch of tools in it. The book will describe the tools and how they are used. Until you put a wrench in your hand and feel the tension of the nut you want to remove...........that's when you figure out the amount of torque to use, how best to hold the wrench for you, etc.........

But, you now have a massive database at your fingertips (literally). Search this forum, read the stickies at the top of the audio forum. Ask questions to the members (try to search first to see if has been asked before). You will find the members here are more than willing to help, as long as you are willing to do some of the work.
 
Last edited:
Joe Stas said:
Thanks very much everyone.

Assuming I have bad technique, how would you recommend I learn? Obviously I learn a lot from trial and error but I'd rather not make too many mistakes in the first place.
Click to expand...

Joe,

If you have not yet, please check out the Audio 101 sticky at the top of the Audio forum. It's got some great starting places, including a link to the "Sound for Film and Television" DVD, which would be a great investment for you.

- Alex
 
Joe Stas said:
Thanks very much everyone.

Assuming I have bad technique, how would you recommend I learn? Obviously I learn a lot from trial and error but I'd rather not make too many mistakes in the first place.
Click to expand...

If this is what you want to do then I suggest you look more into it yourself and take the appropriate steps. There is a world of literature out there for you for free on the internet.

School, books, volunteering, and work experience... You'll be learning forever. This forum is a great place to get opinions and help with anything you can't figure out, you just need to try and weed out the BS.

You can't buy a guitar and call yourself a musician... You can't just buy fruity loops and call yourself a producer... Just like you can't just buy an H4n and NTG3 and call yourself a audio engineer (even if you are a "film maker")... You need to put in the time and work to get there.
 
Joe Stas said:
Thanks very much everyone.

Assuming I have bad technique, how would you recommend I learn? Obviously I learn a lot from trial and error but I'd rather not make too many mistakes in the first place.
Click to expand...

Reading is a good place to start. Finding a sound guy close to you and helping them out on some soots is better.

But you need to ask yourself if YOU want to be a sound person. It is extremely difficult to shoot video and record sound and do both acceptably well, near impossible to do both well.

A two person crew is faster and more flexible than a one person crew. When your actually shooting the second should be dealing with sound. The rest of the time you have a grip/ gaffer/ cable puller/ someone to get coffee.
That is not as good as having a real dedicated sound person but may be more feasible for you.

BTW the low rumble is probably wind and handling noise. Roll off the lows, even in post, and most of that will go away. The cure is to use a shock mount and decent wind protection. The hiss is mostly because you have the gain too high. Anything over 75% or so will start to have noticeable hiss in most budget recorders/ mixers. You turned it up because you were way too far away from what you were recording. Get a mic and a cable and a boompole (with a shock mount) and get the mic in close where it should be.

As a huge simplification, if your talent can't reach out and touch the mic it's too far away.

Sound drops off logarithmically, so the level drops off by the square of the distance (twice as far away 1/4 as loud).

The pres are OK if you get enough signal to them.

I would also second the save your money till you can get good results from what you have (the exception being to get a mic and cable so you can get to where you need to me).
 
Noiz2 said:
Sound drops off logarithmically, so the level drops off by the square of the distance (twice as far away 1/4 as loud).
Click to expand...
Damn, that would get real quiet real fast. Assuming you are talking level in db from that calculation 1" away at 80db will become 20db at 2" away haha....

Sound drops 6db when you are twice as far from the source.
 
Last edited:
Mitch.Kear said:
Damn, that would get real quiet real fast. Assuming you are talking level in db from that calculation 1" away at 80db will become 20db at 2" away haha....

Sound drops 6db when you are twice as far from the source.
Click to expand...

That would be a good point if dB were not a logarithmic scale. So yes if you took the log of a log it would be pretty dramatic, but that would be in some alternate universe.

3dB doubles or halves the power so yes 6dB down would equal twice the distance.
 
LOL, flashbacks from school. "What the heck? I have to do math??????? Oh, crap."

I am going to go look something up. I think some math is off here.
 
Last edited:
Okay, broke out one of my go-to books. What we are talking about here is the "inverse Square" law.
The intensity of a sound in a free field is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source
Click to expand...

This means when you double the original distance in a free space you reduce the intensity to 1/4 of the initial value. 3 times gives you reduction to 1/9th the original. So if you are recording at a 60 db sound @ 10 ft., at 20 foot, it will be 15 db., at 30 it will be 6.67 db. The louder the sound, or the closer you are into it, gives you a more usuable range of distance in which to record passable sound.

Now that is a general rule of thumb when it comes to broad spectrum sound. When you get into more frequency specific sounds, the perceived sound levels change. The lower a frequency is, the further it will carry and the louder it sounds. Yes, mathmatically, it still follows the rule, but the human ear has a "Fletcher Munson" curve applied to it, so those sounds sound louder at equal "power". Plus you have to factor in indoors, where that rule gets a little skewed due to echo and reverb.


LOL, Joe, don't sweat this stuff. Down the road you may have a need to know this tech stuff, but not now. Just know the closer you are to the source the better sound you get.

Mitch, Noiz2, you are scarin' the guy. LOL! I can just imagine what he is thinking right about now. He will never look at a mic the same way again.
 
Last edited:
Hi again,
Been doing a lot of research, thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction!

Just another question about a scenario I was thrown into tonight. I was by myself and had to record some footage at a party (interviews and crowd scenes) and was faced with juggling my h4n and my 7D at the same time. It really wasn't easy and the results won't be great.

What would be a good solution for these types of scenarios? I'm not looking for pro quality sound and I realise I can't ask for miracles. The footage is just for vimeo and isn't paid work either. I need something that I can really run and gun with, preferably mounted to the camera.

I suppose the AGC on the 7D causes problems. Let me know what you think with regards to this situation. Obviously I'm going to look into getting better results under other circumstances though.

Thanks very much.
 
There are ways to mount things like recorders, wireless receivers, and microphones onto your DSLR cam. One setup I've found that works well is a Sound Devices MixPreD with a small recorder (whichever one you have...H4n, DR100, or whatever). I mount the MixPreD on a Norbert frame along with the DR100. I have a shotgun mic on a boom, and put that on a C-Stand (for when I'm shooting myself for a product video), and then I run the mic into the MixPreD, take the mic-level out into the camera, and take the line out and go into my DR100. I use a dumb slate and just hand sync in final cut. I monitor the DR100 with headphones. Works out pretty well. The key to all of this is getting good mic placement. If you are doing everything yourself, you won't be able to boom. It's probably best to have at least one other person helping you with this, if you can.
 
Find a belt pouch for the H4n, put a mic w/mount on the 7D, and run it to the h4n. Record audio on the 7D for a "scratch" track to sync to. But the camera audio and the H4n audio do not meet until in post.

That's the only way I could see you running both sound and camera in a run and gun scenario. But it's not going to be good sound unless you are close to the subject and you will need to monitor the sound and make changes on the fly.
 
I really like the H4n from a functionality standpoint, but using one this last weekend, the converters are VERY noisy. You really have to get in close and maximize the sound, which of course, means not having a lot of headroom. I was using a Rode NTG-2 with one. Even the preamps in the FS100 were cleaner (which surprised me).

I own a sony PCM-50, but sadly, it has no XLR inputs and the price Sony wants to charge for them is just ridiculous to me (>$400 on top of $400 for the recorder!). I use the PCM-50 for recording sound effects because the noise floor is so much lower.

As mentioned, if it were my H4n I'd probably use a 3rd party pre-amp with it if the line level is that much nicer (haven't tried it personally).

I also owned the Tascam HD-P2 and that was REALLY nice. A bit bigger, but if you have a dedicated sound person. (Which I agree is the BEST advice in recording sound on a project) you could probably find one for sale on eBay cheaper.

All that said, getting the most out of what you have with proper technique is going to be step one, or, getting a dedicated person for the task, which is our #1 lesson we learned.

Of course, I REALLY want a Sound Devices recorder personally :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top