F5: Looking at new camera purchase and debating between FS7 and F5. Advice?

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DerekDock

Active member
After shooting corporate work for the past 5 years as part of a production company I will soon be going out on my own and want to have a personal camera so that I can offer my services to other productions while continuing my own client work in the corporate space. I've been shooting almost exclusively on the FS7 since its release so I'm leaning toward that with a B-Cam A7SII (for gimbal) but the F5 package deal with the A7S is very tempting. I've shot with a rented F5 once a couple years back when it wasn't all about 4K and Slog3 so my perspective has changed since then.

So my main question is for those that use the F5 do you find that it adds the value you are looking for? The only thing that really scares me is media cost on the F5. Going the F5 route means I won't have the budget to get my own gimbal which I am ok with as long as the value is there and I hire others for that or rent a Ronin when needed.
 
I think the Fs7 is the best bang for the buck around.. but V,s the F5 I would go with the 5.. the build is more robust ..PL mount.. the EVF,s are better..and the side LCD,and now "quick menu" makes life alot easier.. I found I had to go into the menu alot with the Fs7.. if you want to use V mount and TC in/out you will need the rather ugly.. back add on option.. well I guess you know that !

But if the gimbal is going to get you more work,or you use it alot.. I wouldn't sacrifice buying it for the F5.. also depends if your lenses are PL or not.. end of the day I doubt intrinsically the image of the F5 is any better that the Fs7.. the build is better,the EVF is better,and the access to menu is better..and if you have heavy PL lenses its probably better..
 
Thanks for the advice guys. All of my lenses currently are Leica R, Zeiss ZE or Canon L so an adapter is needed for either solution but I already have a Canon to E mount Metabones Speedbooster.

Gimbal work isn't something I get much of right now but is something I'm leaning toward bolstering to make myself more hire-able. Of course having a more Pro setup also would make me more hireable...
 
Thoughts..

The FS7 works 'naked' but as soon as you 'build' it (back odessey etc) it becomes a pain and actually heavier than the F5.

If you need TCode the F5 is better

F7 has problems
crappy raw
weak lens mount
no timcode without massive box
Lut management on the 7 is comical.. I dont know about the 5.

F5 has problems..
-HF jack sucks
-audio pots forgotten
-no space for a speedbooser (at the moment)
TCode
Easy to support PL zooms
Tidy solution to shoot raw.

Possible new 480mbs XAVC codec which could be good.

I didnt buy the F5 because.. I just didnt like it.. love my FS7 but used it on a big job (PL Timecode) as was asking for production to swap to F5


So it is choosing the right tool for your work

S
 
Incase you haven't seen this, below from the thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?341008-paper-differences-summarized-between-F55-F5-FS7-FS5

That aside for the times I have used FS7 the lens mount scares me a bit, you need to look into lens support. Otherwise it's a solid camera all around, for the money nothing beats the FS7.

Consider also that you can get a F5 for 0% financing depending what country you're in... monthly payments may be more attractive for you even if the F5 costs more. Look at it from tax benefits as well i.e. lease payment versus outright buy.

At the end the end of the day there's no right or wrong, I lean to the F5 but that doesn't make it better. It can easily come down to just a personal decision. You won't go wrong with either one.

starcentral said:
f55_zpsrr3yf6n3.jpg
sony-pmw-f5-cinealta-digital-cinema-camera_0_zpsaps1dbxd.jpg


The differences between the F5/F55 are:

- silver FZ mount ring on F55
- global shutter on F55
- 1250 base ISO (F55) vs 2000 ISO (F5)
- 4K internal comes with F55. It is an upgrade on F5
- Ability to record HD proxy while recording internal 4K XAVC is part of the $1000 4K upgrade for the F5
- F55 supports Sony CA-4000 4K Live Fiber Adapter
- CFA on F55 is same as on F65 and is wider than film according to Sony. The CFA on F5 (and lower models) are more limited to "rec709" color space. Currently it's mostly only evident if shooting specific types of lights, RGB, neon, etc.. day to day you're not going to really see any major difference and also remember that all our displays are mostly limited in colours that can be displayed anyways.
- F5 weight is 7.8 lbs, F55 weight is 7.85 lbs (bodies only)
- Retail price for F5 is $16,490 USD. F55 is $28,990 USD
- Sony SXS Pro+ Plus media $8.40 per GB
- Sony QXD Media with SXS Express Adapter $4.40 per GB


sony_pxw_fs7_compact_4k_xdcam_with_1082825_zpswjylixou.jpg


The FS7 is basically the F5 but:

- No SR RGB 4:4:4 or SR RGB 4:2:2 available on the FS7
- No side LCD
- FS7 has e-mount vs FZ
- FS7 has LANC remote port for use with smart grips
- FS7 has audio pots
- FS7 has XAVC-I and XAVC-L (Long) codec
- FS7 has dual XQD media card slots vs SXS
- FS7 battery mount is BP-90 vs v-mount
- FS7 needs XDCA interface to output RAW and is limited to 12-bit RAW versus 16-bit.
- FS7 can not record HD proxy and 4K XAVC to internal cards. It can only record HD proxy when recording 4K RAW to external AXS-R5 recorder
- Supports metabones speed booster
- Has same native ISO of 2000
- Bug: FS7 can not show WFM during optimal LUT use
- FS7 weight: 4.4 lbs (body only)
- Retail price $8000 USD
- Sony QXD Media with SXS Express Adapter $4.24 per GB

sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35_1185424_zpsj1yuaxxy.jpg


The FS5 is mini version of the FS7 but:

- Does not support 3D LUTs
- No CineEI mode
- RAW available only with paid upgrade
- Has variable digital ND filter built-in
- Uses standard industry SD slots
- 4K (UHD) only available in 8-bit 4:2:0
- Uses cinegammas over hypergammas
- Only AVCHD & XAVC-L available (No XAVC-I)
- 2 channels of audio vs 4 on FS7
- Native 3200 ISO
- Up to 30fps in UHD 3840 x 2160 (FS7 will do up to 60p in UHD 3840x2160)
- Up to 60fps in HD only
- 120fps using full sensor full HD for 16 seconds
- 240fps using full sensor full HD for 8 seconds.
- Weight of FS5 is 1.825 lbs (body only)
- Price of FS5 is $5600 USD
- Sandisk Extreme Pro SD media (Class 10) $0.74 per GB
- Cannot record 4K internally AND have external use of output ports


If I missed anything let me know I will add/change it.
Click to expand...
 
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morgan_moore said:
So it is choosing the right tool for your work
Click to expand...

Morgan summed it up right there. If the FS7 does EVERYTHING you need it to then it's a great bargain and you shouldn't hesitate. At the same time the F5 bundle is a insane deal and if you'll be needing/wanting a A7sII then your set. Or a used F5. I wish I had both cameras as sometimes my F5 can get a bit unwieldy with V-lock etc. and would love a lighter version with no hit on image quality. But for the high majority of work I do the F5 is a necessity. I'll also say this, there is NOTHING Sony or another manufacturer could add to a new camera in the $15-20K area that would be significant enough to make me sell my F5 and eat around another 7+ grand to "upgrade". This camera literally does it all. I've never even shot RAW with it, 444RGB just twice, 50i at 50Mbs six times, 180 fps in HD three times, 4K about a dozen times, PL lenses four times, but they're all there if I need them. I have a wide variety of clients with dramatically different needs and this camera covers them all.

I think the fact that Sony has stated they will not be replacing or adding any Cine Alta cameras at NAB and will continue to support and add features to the 5/55 says a lot and we know how much Sony LOVES to release new cameras.
 
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what is the likelihood of NAB bringing something that would change someone's mind if they were looking closely at an F5/FS7? I too am looking towards an F5 (hopefully used)/A7SII combo this year, and because of the poor raw implementation on the FS7 really has me convinced that it's going to be an F5.
 
hojomo said:
what is the likelihood of NAB bringing something that would change someone's mind if they were looking closely at an F5/FS7? I too am looking towards an F5 (hopefully used)/A7SII combo this year, and because of the poor raw implementation on the FS7 really has me convinced that it's going to be an F5.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that Sony has said there won't be anything at NAB but there are rumors of an 8K camera. I won't pull the trigger on anything until after NAB just in case.
 
I'd say FS7. It's the best camera for the price and Speed Booster by itself is super, super useful. For run and gun it turns the Canon 24-105 f4 into a 17-75 f2.8 which for the price, is a great range for Run and Gun. Plus it's a bit more gimbal friendly.

If you're going to spend $20K on a camera which is probably what the F5 is going to cost, you might as well buy a Scarlet-W which is what I'm getting. Still keeping the FS7 though as that camera gets lots of jobs for me, mainly doc stuff for sports - Nike, NBA, MLB, NFL, etc... Scarlet-W for the higher end jobs, not necessarily because I think the image will be that much better, but producers and directors tend to favor Red for the higher end stuff.
 
hojomo said:
what is the likelihood of NAB bringing something that would change someone's mind if they were looking closely at an F5/FS7? I too am looking towards an F5 (hopefully used)/A7SII combo this year, and because of the poor raw implementation on the FS7 really has me convinced that it's going to be an F5.
Click to expand...


Sony had said they won't be bringing out any new CineAlta cameras at NAB, FS7 line is not CineAlta so I expect Sony will be announcing something new and 4K at NAB. I would put money on it.
 
If budget is not an issue F5 without a doubt. It's the more professional camera and does useful RAW. With the new F5 deal plus the used prices it's going for I'm thinking of selling my FS7 and go for a F5. I'm getting really tired of dealing with the FS7 BS. I know both the F5 and F55 have their own set of issues. But I rather deal with that. The FS7 is great for the money but it has too many limitations if you want to do bigger jobs. The F5 can happily live in both worlds. It's not that much bigger than the FS7 when stripped down. But the FS7 is just not up for the big leagues. The crappy amateur viewfinder, the amateur build, menu, need menu too much, the timecode problem and you don't even get useful RAW. Too many things. It's getting on my nerves by now.


I'm just waiting for NAB and I will probably dump the FS7 and get a F5.


About buying a Red instead. No Red camera is as practical as a F5 or F55. Apples to oranges.
 
From your clients' point of view there really isn't much of a difference. If you are going to be shooting raw then unquestionably the F5, but for all the talk on forums - seemingly frequently by people who are overseeing the full workflow of both shooting and postproduction - I don't think I would be out of line to say that the vast majority of footage being shot today by either model is not raw.

From an operating point of view, yes, the F5 is a bit heavier, but then set up properly it is a comfortable camera to hold and having spent many years working with Beta SP, Digibeta and then HDCams and Varicam B4 cameras I was surprised recently by how heavy an F800 felt compared to an F5. You get used to what 'light' or 'heavy' means and compared to the terrible ergonomics of say a C300 I could happily shoot hand held all day with either an FS7 or an F5/F55.

From an operating point of view, when I have been asked to shoot on an FS7 I hugely miss the side menu of the F5/F55. It is so easy to bounce between settings and have control of things like ISO or shutter, plus have info available without cluttering the viewfinder. Familiarity means that my finger can jump to the buttons as needed without looking, and the jog wheel is nice and big to grab whilst shooting hand held.

I still bake in a lot in CineEI, and on the F5/F55 you can play ISO like an ND or jump between LUTs (or between LUT on and LUT off). As I say, no consequence to the client, and if you only do one or two shoots with the camera not going to mean much to you, but as an owner with a long term relationship to the kit it makes a huge difference to me.

The one big regret for me is that the FZ mount on the F5 currently doesn't have the Speedbooster toys of the more mass-market E mount. Being a sturdy PL it is however a much more sensible design than the stillsy 'E' if you are going to be playing with heavy cinematic lenses.

Personally, I'd say once you've read this thread cast it aside and try to have a decent tryout with both cameras. Different strokes for different folks. Ideally more than a quick play in a showroom. An FS7 is great value, but you are going to be pushing its use so make sure its right for your sensibilities. An F5 is a considerably bigger investment, but then it is your livelihood (and back ;-) ).

I know Arri fans who see an F5 and can't understand why they made it from tinfoil and tissue paper, and DSLR users who see one and can't understand what's so great about putting a sack of bricks on your shoulder. :-)

Ben
 
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IMO The thing about mass is not really during a take on the shoulder - it is the environment steps up.

Its lugging the thing about all day and also the relation with grip.

Counter mass on a crane

Tripod head capacity

Gimbal spec?

Steadicam.. my FS7 stripped works on my Pilot.

Ability to handhold over the head looking down etc

Ability to ram a batt charger, Camera 3 lenses, 3 batts into your carry on bag

Im in the camp that the FS5 is tempting if the codecs were not so weak.. just to cut mass.

Of course none of this may matter to the OP

S
 
I frequently carry an F5/F55 body, viewfinder, a couple of stills lenses, pola and H/E grads, up to four batteries and a set of cards carefully broken down in my Billingham as carryon. And a book.

Slightly denser than the sun, but I like to know that I could turn over even if some of the hold baggage ends up on another continent (I had that happen once :-P ),

Ben ;-)
 
This is undoubtingly going to be the thread where most people with an FS7 say it's the better choice, and anyone with F5/F55 says it's the better choice. :thumbsup:

Here in DVX we can argue specs, weight, money, all that stuff but consider one other thing is if you are looking to inch your way into a specific market or type of work... i.e. Can you get b-cam work for other FS7 or F5 shooters in your area?

I'll give a real example; I'm friends with several FS7 shooters/owners and some F5/F55 owners in my area. You never know when you will need a b-cam or c-cam owner/operator and for what kind of job. But if I happen to land a bigger commercial job I would likely never bring an FS7 on a set with my F5/F55. There are a lot of reasons for this which I'm not going to get into in a public forum. Another example for arguments sake; are you more likely to convince a producer your FS7 is more like a RED camera or your F5/F55 16-bit RAW capable camera is?

Again yeah sure there is no right / wrong, etc.. but consider the type of work you might / might not get depending on the camera you own. Many here will say they are hired for their reels and not their camera, which is probably true for the most part, but there is a thing where the camera itself may or may not be the right camera for the job so now you have to look at renting the "other" camera to get the job while your cam sits at home. This even happens to me with the F55 from time to time.

Me and Doug J here will agree to always buy the BEST camera you can afford, even if it means going a bit over budget, and even if today you're saying that you don't need any of the extra features. I mean how can anyone really say that for sure?

Just food for thought.
 
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The thing about 'The Best' camera is that it is related to need.

Most of us love the F35 but could not use it (too heavy, power hungry) on a day to day basis.

When I was considering the F5 it certainly became clear that I would probably get a better ROI on the F55 (but the F5 was 1080 at the time)

ROI is critical - not cost - and you dont want to spend $10g when $15g would put you in a better place the extra $5 spread over 24months is the price of a few coffees.

S
 
Speaking about ROI. Depending on who your clients are and what they're used to paying for kit/camera rental from you, a good larger chunk of change can be made owning a F5. Unless of course everyone/camera ops in YOUR market are under charging. For example; on high average I get a $500 per day rental for my F5 with a couple Nikon zooms. If lets say you shoot 50 days a year, compared to a FS7 where your prob getting around $300, thats a $10K difference, in one year. If you know your market/clients well and don't see them paying up for a F5 then you might not get your investment back as quick, or ever. Just a thought.
 
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